For example, how can you possibly charch £15 for a t-shirt? Not even a 'label'.. just a standard tshirt, not made of gold thread, and not the Last Surviving T-shirt from the Ancient Galagian Empire.

Or even, why do people _pay_ £15 for it? Do they think that, because it costs a lot of money, it must be better? Maybe they intend to leave the price label on, so people can see how rich they are that they can afford it?

And - what is this thing about labels on clothes? You can hardly move these days for Nike jumpers, etc.. do people like to walk around like an advert? Do they have so little to say themselves that the words on their clothes make up for it?

Now, there is one common explanation - they do it to fit in. It's important that you wear 'cool' clothes with a label on, so you can hang out with your cool friends and not appear uncool. It's cool that you can afford to spend £15 on your t-shirt, because anything less wouldn't be as good!

Which brings me neatly onto the actual point - the amount of conformance in society.

It seems that today, what matters about someone is not your opinions, not your attitude, not your skills, but how well you can fit in. This is most obvious among teenagers I suppose [1], but also perhaps less obviously in other parts.

Take, for example, the level of conformance among corporate employees. You wear a suit. End of story. As if somehow, wearing a suit means you're better suited [2] to do your job.

Now, you could say it's important to 'look smart', when dealing with customers, or partners, and that wearing a suit shows that you have a smart, professional attitude to life.

That's shite.

Any idiot can wear smart clothes. A suit tells you _nothing_ about a person. If you really want to find out what someone's like, let them wear their own clothes. What you wear is, to me, one of the most expressive ways of describing yourself. It's not somehow less 'smart' to wear different clothes -- how smart is it to be another clone?

The same thing is true of uniforms. If you go into a shop, and everyone there is wearing exactly the same clothes, what does that tell you about the message they're trying to send? "Everyone here is exactly the same and has no feelings" ? -- hardly a welcoming attitude!

What kind of society are we living in now, that conformance is such a high expectation? Because along with lack of individuality, comes apathy and lack of 'motive', for want of a better word. And with that -- noone to question. Who cares what the government is doing? What XYZ company has done now? Noone -- because to protest is to stand out, to make yourself known.

Perhaps the problem is one of personal (in)security. If you're part of the horded masses, you're average. No better, no worse, just average. Could it be that people would rather be average than taking a change at being better, and ending up worse? It's better to accept what's going on than to state your opinion and risk (gasp!) being critisiced.

Or maybe it's a problem of lazyness, or apathy. Who needs to actually _think_? You can buy everything you need at the local supermarket. You have a 9-5 job, you have your TV, your world cup. Why risk changing any of this by actually doing anything?

I'm inclined to take the second option. I really do believe that modern society has a _lot_ of problems with this, to the point where it becomes dangerous -- because once you've started, it's very hard to reverse the direction. Companies support it -- it's easier to sell one product to the masses than have to consider what different people actually want. And the government is happy -- they aren't about to complain that noone's objecting to the next bill they want to pass, are they?

As to where this is all going, I can't say. Maybe I'm wrong, and everything will turn out fine, and everyone's happy. I can't see that.

Anyone happen to agree with me? (Or think I'm absolutely insane - either's fine >:)

-larne.

(NP: Sisters of Mercy - Flood II)

[1] I'm really trying not to stereotype here -- but it is true of a great deal, at least where I live.

[2] Pun not intentional >:)

individuality?

my father is a conformist and my mother just goes her own direction, and im somewhere in between the origional ethics/personality of a hacker, and a goth

so i conform a little but retain my own style, like i would never volunterily wear a suit, but if i had to it would be a basic suit with my own clothes added in(as appropiate)

but anyway, this was really just a effort to make a post longer than 4 lines

"What's that?" >:)



You don't have to >:) That's just it - people don't, but they do. And I'll stop now before I start ranting again.



*faints*

-larne.

(NP: Tanya Tucker - Tell me about it)

yes, belive it or not i am capable of posts greater than 4 lines

anyhoo, socity is so mainstreamed and controlled there isnt much space for individuality anymore, to put it in better words.. a classic simpsons quote

"can you imagine a world without lawyers?!"

*image of people dancing and holding hands*

*guy shudders*

There are many subcultures devoted to individualatisim, like punk, goth, hacker etc etc, so sign up as many people as you can

People are just scared to show their real selves. They have no afflatus or incentive to do so. If it makes them cool, and makes them fit in, they'll go to the furthest extents to pursue it.

They fear being singled out, and are much more content being an appurtenance to the mainstream. Instead of being criticized as a person, they are more comfortable being criticized as a group. They coalesce with the stereotype, so they can conform to it.

If the dreaded happens, and they get singled out as a individual, their fear of criticism kicks in. The insults are directed at each person individually, and this time they have no group to cower behind. Suddenly, they're in the spotlight and they have to use their own minds, opinions, and thoughts to reason.

That's what I think, is that they just use whatever is "in" as something to hide behind.

Yes. You are so right (all of you). Insecurity being the main cause I think. It drives me absolutely insane some days. I am still at school and so I am surrounded by it. I think I must have a very conformist school actually. It is very, very dull and when everyone is trying to be like everyone else it is very hard to see people as who they really are.

I think that is why people have so much trouble when they are trying not to generalise and stereotype. The problem is that conformists conform to ideals and ways of dress 'everyone' else supposedly thinks to be 'cool.' If people are conforming they are bascially trying to say to you "I am the same as them." If people didn't conform, if people let the real them be seen, well then. Would there be so much stereoyping?

....Probably.


I agree that conformity is a big problem.

But what can you do? How people think is not something that can be changed easily.

You're right. That's absurd. Where did you see it?

I used to feel the same way about labels, but I've had to change my view because I've bought some rather expensive items recently so...


Remember though, that all the sheep out there only serve to make those of us that are different that much more different. Without them, we wouldn't be us. </chickensoup>


Here I'll have to differ. When I go into a shop where they've got uniforms, I simply know who I can ask for advice/help. It makes it that much easier. I also feel pro-school uniforms. Then there's no real worry about what to wear to school. Fair enough though, it would be hellish.

Bottom line? The price that people pay to conform is astounding and upsetting? :p

I have to wear suits on occasion, and it doesn't bother me a bit. Now I don't wear the typical corporate uniform, and I have a couple of tattoos that can't be hidden. In fact, I like wearing that "uniform" with bits of my personality accenting the whole picture. Piercings, weird jewelry, my hair. It's terribly confusing to people. I used to wear my septum ring with a suit on the train every morning in Chicago. People wouldn't sit next to me.... does not compute.

I'm in publishing sales. I adore my company and my job, so I'm willing to sacrifice this small thing to keep said job. Some jobs do require a certain dress code, period. There is no getting around it. I hate it as much as anyone, but I have to live, and I'm not going to be some record store clerk just so I can have my nose ring in and do my vampy eyeliner. Not everyone you see wearing a suit has crumbled under the pressures of conformity. Look at what they wear after work. A confession: I really like some designer clothes. There are a few designers that make really unusual things, clothes that your typical straight person just wouldn't wear. Take a look at Vivienne Westwood, Ann Demeulemeester, John Gallianno, and Betsey Johnson. With the exception of Betsey, you don't see many people daring enough to wear these clothes. Westwood was one of the "mothers" of punk. Demeulemeeter is as avant garde and dark as they come. I don't have the money to buy from these people most of the time, but I certainly would if I could. And NOT to look like everyone else.

So, ahem. I apologize for my rant. I feel especially touchy about this subject of late.

One of the biggest markers of what the original post was about these days is the music industry.

Look at the biggest artists these days, especially ones popular in the teen audience. There is ALOT better music out there, but its not got big corporate backing and is not being shoved down teen's throats by the RIAA. Why? maybe the lead singer isnt cute enough, or maybe the artist may have some integrity, and decide they DONT want to sell Pepsi.

Long gone are the days when making it big in the music industry had anything to do with having any musical talent. These days, the artists who become famous and earn the big bucks, are whoever the executives at the RIAA decide should be the next biggest hit. And talent has nothing to do with it. What counts is looking picture-perfect, and a willingness to appear on commercials, etc.

Hell, the RIAA even revived payola [1], which was rampant in the 50's and 60's (tho has been around since the 20's). Payola is illegal, but the RIAA now has big-name lawyers, to figure out some way to re-brand it as something else that isnt illegal. The wonder of modern-day law.

There has always been a 'mainstream', a core (particularly of teens) that defines whats popular, and normal. But even within the mainstream, there used to at least be diversity. These days, every teen must like the same bands, dress the same, and think the same or they're a 'freak'. I've noticed, that you talk to one teen in the mainstream, you've pretty muched talked to them all. The only ones interesting to talk to nowdays ARE the 'freaks', mainly because you might actually hear something different from them.

Personally, I'm glad my mother didnt dress me in Nike/ADIDAS/Rebok stuff. She went for the better-quality and cheaper more practical stuff, which suited me fine. Sure, I was never with the 'cool' crowd at school, but I look back and laugh now. I've probably travelled more of the globe, and am almost certainly earning more money than anyone I went to school with, mainly because of the fact that I'm not a sheep. Thinking differently in this world will definately get you far, which is why the new business buz-phrase now is 'think outside the box'. Again, amusing how a phrase which is supposed to mean 'dont conform, and do things a new way' has been re-defined to mean 'work harder, and if you have an idea, tell us, so we can claim it as ours, but DONT ever break the company line, and you MUST conform to our standards'.

[1] Payola - a bribe given to a disc jockey to induce him to promote a particular record.

Agreed. In some cases uniforms, while boring and dull, serve their purpose, which is making certain people recognisable to others...

In regards to the school uniform issue, I'm in favour of them to an extent. While it's nice to be able to wear what you like, the down side of that is that those kids who come from families where money is tighter will not be able to buy the name brand stuff that will ensure them 'coolness' in the in-crowd. I'm pretty sure that anyone who has gone through the non-school uniform system and who didn't belong to the popular crowd will have had comments made about their clothing at one time or another. And I've seen people viciously made fun of because they couldn't afford the Nike/Reebok/Diesel/<insert brandname> clothing that was in at the time. Having a school uniform, all looking the same, takes away the judgement of the clothing that you wear, and means that you're more likely to be judged on who you are as a person rather than what you wear.

And yes, it does make choosing what to wear in the morning a lot easier

Okay, first of all... 15 UKP is about USD$ 23, which isn't all that much for a t-shirt in my opinion (depending on the quality, obviously). That said, if you're living off pocket money I can see where you'd disagree.

Have you ever sat down and done the basic economics of how much it costs to make the shirt? Depending on where it is made, you are paying for materials, labour costs (and while you can pay someone in some asian country peanuts to work for you, western countries have labour laws and minimum wage), production costs, shipping costs, storage costs at warehouses, profit for the manufacturer, profit and fees for any potential middlemen and profit/fees for the shop owner, and then add on tax. All these costs have to be recouped in the sale of that one item.

That UKP 15 has to go a long way for a lot of people.


Lilith

Look at it from the other angle. How secure are you going to feel as a client when you see someone who is supposed to represent your business interests who looks as though he can't even take care of his own appearance? While it may be nifty and original to have your hair dreaded and partly bleached and dyed blue, wear your grungy cargo pants and a 15 year old vintage shirt or something, it's not exactly going to be all that confidence inspiring to your potential client.

Wearing a suit, while dull, usually (like other uniforms, see my school uniform ocmment) takes away the issue of being judged on your clothing/appearance as people all look the same.

While wearing a suit doesn't necessarily reflect the competance of the person, it does take the whole image/appearance thing out of the equation.

Either way, depending on the field you're going to go into, suits are a reality, or just dressing up relatively smart. Such is life *shrug* it's clothing, your personality is not completely dependant on that which you wear during those hours that you're slaving for your paycheck.

Lilith

I read a book on this once. I think it was called "Social Phobia" or something like that. I had a picture of a huge crowd of people in black/green and a big red X through it. It was written by some psychiatrist/psychologist who studied social phobia (big surprise).

One of the things he observed was that most people fear dying alone more than anything. In fact, being alone was rated higher on the scale of fear than death was. He explained it by saying that humans became a social animal in order to survive. To be cast out of the group would mean death to an individual.

This is no longer neccesarily true, but the old instinct is still their. Some of his case studies were interesting. People who would have the 'fight or flight' reaction to a smile or a look, etc., and end up trembling and helpless (tis better to be beaten than killed).

Considering the psychological effects on some individuals, rejection is a pretty nasty thing. It takes a strong mind to overcome it. People fed on TV dinners and instant gratification would be totally helpless.

ShallowGrave

Sorry for the delay in reply, just got back from being away. Let's see..

Mia:


I'm not sure that people are trying to hide what they are, so much as turn what they are into something else - they don't want to 'look' cool or 'appear' cool, they want to _be_ cool. Which, IMO, is a much worse thing..



I would agree that being critisised as a group _can_ be easier than as a person. It's easy to shrug off someone saying 'all people that listen to pop music are unimaginitive and boring', for example, compared to someone saying that about you. You can, in effect, hide behind the group, and not have to deal with this yourself.



And I swear I had not read that when I wrote the last sentence >:)
dark shadow:



Most people start at school at an early age, and it seems that it will, probably, have an influence on who they are. The attitude at some schools (not trying to generalise here, but only speaking from experience) is that it's a very conformist institution; people are almost punished for showing individuality. I don't think this is the intent, but it certainly does seem to happen. And in an environment like that, it seems that it would be very easy to just become part of the current 'group', and be like everyone else.



Yes. I think this is part of the problem.. you can't just 'fix' it, and it's pretty much ingrained in society, to the extend that I can't see it becoming less so, only more.

"That person is cool, I'm like that person, therefore I must be cool." Certainly people are scared of being themselves, which might be an 'unknown', and rather they want the certainty of being something they've seen before.

AmoulSolo:



BHS, Oxford.



Expensive clothes, or expensive labels? I don't have a problem with paying money for good clothes (which are worth the price), to me that's very different from paying money for a label.



I don't agree with that. What other people are, doesn't change what _you_ are. Unless, of course, you're simply trying to be 'different', rather than being 'you', which is pretty much the same as trying to be part of the mainstream. You see something, and decide you want to be that. You should instead, decide to be you, and if you fit under some stereotype, fine, but that's simply incidental. (Meaning the general 'You', not you in particular.)


In shops where the staff don't wear uniforms, I've never found it a problem to find someone to ask. It's generally pretty clear who's working there, and who's shopping.



I can't agree here. A school uniform is simply another way of attempting to force everyone to be part of the same group. People aren't the same - people don't all look the same, and nor should they. greyeyes:



Exactly. That's the problem. There's no reason they should, except that society demands it. And that is sort of the point >:)
(Making an exception for protective clothing that actually _is_ required..)
Lilith:



Yes. But introducing another problem (a uniform) to solve an existing problem ('clothism') is not a solution. The correct thing to do is to remove the requirement that you must wear XYZ brand clothes. As to how, unfortunately I have no idea.



Sure. I'm not going to argue this, seeing as it's not something I have a lot of experience in, but it _does_ still seem like a large sum. *shrug*



There's a difference between 'not wearing a suit' and 'not caring about your appearence'. The only reason it looks less 'professional' to not look 'smart', wearing a suit etc. is because that's what society expects. And that is the problem.



Yes, such is life - but that doesn't mean it's correct, which is sort of my point. There's no reason it needs to be like that.

-larne.

(NP: Sisters of Mercy - Marian)

A uniform solves the problem of not needing to wear XYZ brand. As you noticed trying to solve that problem in a different way isn't very feasible. Also, there isn't any official "requirement" to wear XYZ brand, but it's just something that seems to have evolved so trying to stop that is going to be near impossible... you don't have control over what's deemed cool or not.

If it's a choice between trying to keep up with the latest trends and spending loads of money in an order to be deemed 'cool' or wearing a school uniform which removes this pressure from kids, I don't see that wearing a school uniform is a problem as such.

Also, the most important reason you are in school is to learn stuff. Well, that's the idea behind it anyway. Having to wear a uniform for those few hours a day you are at school is not going to irrevocably alter your personality. If it is, then there's something very wrong with you.

Wearing a uniform means you take any kind of judgement on the basis of clothing/appearance out of the equation. You're not in school to express your personality, you're there to learn. There are enough times outside of the school or work sphere where you can express who you are with what you wear.

Anyway, my point is that if you are letting who you are be dictated by what you wear you have a long way to go. And even if you have to conform to certain standards, there are still things one can do to have freedom within the standards.

While I may prefer to wear certain types/styles of clothing, it's not going to kill me to wear a suit or a uniform in order to go to school or get my job done.

Lilith