Hi...
I read your description of what goth "is" and "isn't"...felt like a good conversation starter.
Now, let me start by saying that I know that blood_rose was not saying we had to be a certain way - this is directed at people who do feel that you have to dress a particular way or listen to a particular kind of music. Also (as a sidenote) I think what blood_rose may have been trying to say is that a goth doesn't HAVE to listen to the music listed, but the music ITSELF is gothic, unlike other kinds.
Now hold on while I get back on my pedestal. *clears her throat*
To me, gothic was an escape of conformity and expectations. It was a subculture that, I thought, would allow me to express my own opinions without being mocked and humiliated for thinking outside the box.
This being the case, anyone who would think that a gothic person must dress a certain way, listen to a certain kind of music or behave exactly like everyone else could be considered pretty hypocritical.
Don't get me wrong...I suppose I listen to typical gothic music, and often wear typical gothic clothing. But even on the days where I look different on the outside (i.e. wear blue jeans and a white t-shirt or decide to listen to Ben Folds Five), that doesn't mean my mind or my state of being has changed.
I think "gothic" is an exploration, and appreciation, for the darker side of life. To me a gothic person is somebody who is intelligent, insightful but sadly misunderstood.
I'm not going to put any expectations on them other then that; people should divide themselves according to the way they think, not according to how they look.
I understand, however, that there are some Goths who are really all about the fashion and the music, and it doesn't bother me. But to expect all of us to be that way isn't giving us much room to express ourselves.
Well that's my two cents... Maybe it will start up some interesting conversation. Thanks for listening!

Christina

Actually, in all honesty, whether or not I can be accurately labelled as a goth is trivial. The things that draw me here are the fact that there are so many different opinions held by each individual, and yet everyone accepts each other as is. Wars have been fought over the ideals of people, yet we can sit here, and not necessarily agree with that person, but accept him/her for who they are. They are also extremely talented, and are not ashamed to show it, but at the same token, they do not flaunt it around.

There does seem to be a large amount of people who say they are goth though when they truly arent. It seems like a good majority were rejected from the mainstream, and are looking for a way to fit in. For those, we can only hope that they stop trying to fit in, and just be. Once they do that, they will be much happier with themselves and they wouldn't worry about whether I, you, or anyone else putting them in a certain label.

Along my definition of goth, I feel there are different types of goth. It would be impossible to say "This and only this is goth". Let me give an example, classical. Classical has several meanings. It stands for ancient literature found around the roman and greek times. Musically, it stands for music made around the late 1700s early 1800s, and around there. Classical can also stand for the original version of something. The same applies for goth. There is the original goths, Germans who overtook the Roman empire. There is the gothic look, which is defined by clothing. There is the gothic music "genre", defined as music similar to Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, and Nephilim. There is gothic thinking, which has been labelled as a dark, negative way of thinking, but we tend to define it as embracing the finer things in life and accepting who you are without regards to what anyone else says. At the same token, you do not flaunt your abilities around those who do not wish to hear them and when we don't want to(that is why outsiders call us gothic thinkers anti-social and that we avoid conflicts... if only they knew), and, not necessarily agree with, like, or befriend, but accept others for who they are in most cases(I say most, because I would not accept a person who has a deep hatred for me, or only knows how to act like an idiot). Finally, there is the gothic subculture, the hardest to define. The gothic subculture(something that seperates a group of people from mainstream) would be a mixture of gothic wear, music, and most importantly, thinking. Once all of these have been achieved, one can truly be defined as a full gothic subculture member. Don't be afraid to label yourself as a gothic wearer, listener, or thinker if you fall into one of those catagories though, just as in classical, where only the music of a period is classical, or the lit of a period is classical, you are still a goth in the terms of the clothes you wear, the music you listen to, OR the way you think.

As for myself, I do not always dress black, even though I do enjoy wearing it. I do listen to a bit of gothic, but not to the extent that several of you do, and I definately do not fit into the original definition(germanic invader). The only area that I can be classified under goth is my thought. I suppose that means I do not fall under any subculture whatsoever(some of you may say transition... if that were the case, its one hell of a long transition, and I dont think it will pass in the near future).

Wheh, that was long. Hope that generates new thoughts on the idea of goth, and so forth. This is in no way the definitive definition of gothic, only represents my idea of goth. If you don't agree, go ahead and post your thoughts. I won't hate you for it, and who knows, it may very well change my ideas of what a goth really is.

I don't think anyone does fit the definition of germanic invader. That also wasn't what the subculture was named for, so the comparison is kind of moot.



Lilith

yea, just some quick thinks that I came up with. Even though I may of described the subculture wrong, I still have a strong opinion on the different types of gothic things. It's just really hard to put into words.

I do agree that it all begins with the music. 15 years ago, when I became a goth, I really didn't know what the name was for who we were. There were about 20 of us at my high school. Other people called up new-wavers and other hysterical names. Witch was the most common for me. Goth came a couple of years later. I have never gone around saying I'm a goth, the label has been applied to me.

The majority of the music I listen to is goth, and always will be. I'm also a fan of early punk and 80's synth- pop. The music of the 80's was so radically different form anything that had come before, and the artists were so different from each other, most of my friends listened to everything. Granted, my tastes developed early and haven't changed much. I'm always fascinated by how current Bauhaus sounds compared to the drivel on the radio. Interestingly enough, VH1 Classics has been playing some of our music. I saw a Nick Cave video the other day. Back to the subject at hand, though.

As for outward appearance, well this is the first time in my life I've had to compromise. For my 15th Birthday, my mother bleached my hair white, added black tips and sent me on my way. I wore all black, everyday for years. Through college, through bookstore jobs... managing a bookstore. All things I could do while retaining my look, nose ring and all. Now I have a sales position that requires my outward appearance to be dramatically different part of the time. I work from home, so I don't have to do this everyday. Fortunately, my company is understanding about my tattoo, piercings and very red hair. I will don a suit without thinking twice, and I don't feel uncomfortable. Does this make me non-goth? I think not! I can finally afford a Voller corset, and Sisters is still in the CD player.

There comes a time when you have to adjust, and I have found it to be easier than I ever expected. There is no doubting what subculture I belong to, and I'm still very proud of the fact I have remained. It is true what PreZ said in another post... success is the best revenge. And let me tell you, there is something so sweet about buying a fitted black Armani jacket to go with a sapphire blue corset. I know, label whore, but hell.... who wouldn't?

That's great really, say something we don't know. How about a little mention of the New Romantics in here?

Well, obviously you know somethign so this thread isn't for you. This thread was for all teh kids out there who think they are so gothic because they wear spiked bracelets.


I would mention the New Romantics, but deathrock was originally a rebellion against that. So as much as I appreciate New Romantic, it's not goth... not by a long shot.

New Romantic in it's second wave only got associated with goth after a bunch of Sisters of Mercy fans decided that the Sisters were goth too and started dressing like they were going to a New Romantic's funeral.

Thank you Blood Rose. I was only trying to be helpful.

Yess!
I give up on trying to put words to what are flying around my head right now (and colliding with eachother). Mainly cos i think it has all been said. Chistina (or MistressLoki) what you said was fantastic! It was exactly what I think and what I was trying to say before I gave up in frustration.
Here's to the darker side of life and all those people out there who are "intelligent, insightful but sadly misunderstood."

Maija (dark shadow)

EXACTLY! I'm glad someone else feels the same. (Or rather found a way to say it so perfectly).

I just thought of something else. (:

In response to what MistressLoki said about dividing yourself by the way you think, my opinion is that people ARE divided by the way they think, if they like it or not. I have a friend who is very, very different to me ... but something about how we both think means we make sense to eachother. And there's people out there who I just can't connect with at all. That is why I think people are divided by how they think.

Also, I think people forget to look past what someone looks like to how that person thinks. That causes all sorts of confusion because I imagine the way someone looks (dresses) is a result of how they think ... I don't believe it works the other way round. Dress style doesn't affect the thinking!!! Right?

to ME, the subculture developed from music. that means that if you were actually BORN and ENJOYED the goth music of the 80s you ARE a GOTH. the way you described it. So that means that hippies do not exist anymore, since they lived in the 60s.

WRONG. there are hippies still, teens, who were not born in the 60s. the thing is, at first it was about music, and then it started as a way of thinking and a way of living. Which music were Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy listening to if they were the first goth musicians? they were not goth if they were not listening to goth music? it just doesn't make sense to me. We took example over them, listened to their music, liked it, felt it, and it developed into something GREAT. doesnt matter the music. I listen to Slipknot (i know they're not goths, but who cares?) and Korn. I mean...we often talk about stereotypes...to me, if only ppl who own Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy are considered goth, it means they're stereotyped too. Our musical taste is part of our differences. Many bands are goth and were inspired by them, and that's the point of diversity. I do like them, but I don't own their CDs. Does it make me a wannabe? just because I have different musical tastes? i like the music sure, because as you said, it is the origin of the goth subculture. But we can't really stay back in the 80s all our lives. Goths have changed from then and now, and music changes too. New bands arrive, and they can be strongly influenced by the original goth musicians. thats the great thing about music.

First of all... who exactly are you responding to? With 3 pages of posts it's not exactly clear to which message you're trying to respond. There is a Quote button in the top right hand corner of each post, click on the quote button of the post you wish to respond to and it will quote the text from that message in your post, making it easier for people to know who you're replying to.

Between your first and your second paragraph you're contradicting yourself... first you say that hippies don't exist, and then that they do... kind of confusing.



Uhm... new movements do occur you know. Were hippies hippies if they weren't listening to hippy music if they were the first hippies?



In the goth scene, the original music that started it all is still very popular, and is still played at clubs and the like. As mentioned before, you don't have to like all of it, but to not like any of it is going to be kind of odd, especially considering they do influence and inspire newer goth bands.

Nobody claimed that you had to be born in the late 60s/70s and had to grow up in the late 70s and in the 80s to be a Goth. Looking at the general age of many in the scene, it's pretty obvious that that isn't true. It's also not mandatory to own Bauhaus or Sisters cds. Personally though, I do think that you ought to know who the fuck they are if you go around proclaiming yourself to be a Goth. And there are plenty of the little tykes around that proclaim themselves to be gothic and have absolutely no fucking clue where the subculture originated from, and who Bauhaus/Siouxsie/The Sisters are. They are bands you should know at the very least, even if you don't have the cd's.



Well, goth is one of those subcultures that embraces its roots, and it likes its early music. It's still appreciated and played because people like it. And people do obviously move on, as there is new music around as well. Goth very much embraces its 80s heritage... if that bothers you you might be in the wrong subculture. There are more than enough subcultures that discard the old for something new as soon as the oppertunity arises. Also, would you tell a classical music listener to stop listening to Mozart and Bach and to check out more contemporary classical composers just because we don't live in the 18th or 19th century anymore?

I don't own every last Sisters, Bauhaus and Siouxsie cd either, mainly as I don't have the money to buy them all, and I also like to get music by other and newer bands.

I'm also not sure I'd really want to compare being a hippy to being a goth. I think the former is more of a lifestyle and the latter a subculture. Being a hippy is infused with a certain kind of political and philosophical ideology which I don't see as being the same as with being a goth.

Anyway, apologies if this is slightly disjointed as I've been responding to different parts at different times.

Lilith

then



What the hell are you on about? I mean you start off by saying that to you



Then you say you are wrong.

This is pretty fucked up.

Not if you were born in the 80s. I mean, really.... how many people here were NOT born in the 80s? A whole lot. Does that mean that people born int he 80s listen to 80s music? no. Does that mean people who were born in 1999 only listen to music made after 1999?
No. That's retarded.

I listen to music that was made anywhere between 700 AD and today. what the hell does the age of the music have to do with it? To prove my point even further, if you are only paying attention to current music trends instead of differentiating between what is good and what is absolute shite, then you are mainstream. pop. trendy. moving with trends. I dont buy into that crap. To me, music is timeless.

Next order of business:
Goth is not a way of thinking. Goth is not a way of living. SOrry. Hate to burst your bubble. There's relativism, there's ethical thought, there's existentialism, but there's no Gothic way of thinking. THere's no gothic way of living. We aren't separated frorm society. We don't live in fucking communes. We just happen to be people who dress in predominately black, read Gaiman, and sing along to Front 242 in the shower.

Bauhaus do not call themselves goth. They are merely the music goths listen to. Sisters of Mercy do not call themselves goth. They are merely the music goths listen to. And as far as stereotypes go,... don't like them? too bad. that's life.

And it's not really a stereotype of goths and gothic music like Bauhaus and SoM. That's like saying that punks who listen to The Ramones is a stereotype.



ok... how is it that a music-based subculture can survive without the music? no matter how much the stores, MTV, your friends, the media, or anyone else tries to sell, package and market a watered down version of goth, it ain't nothing like the real thing. And it never will be.



Yes. But those band never will include the likes of Korn and Slipknot. THey are hardly influenced by the original. Giving even a 15 second listen to gothic music will tell you that. You want to know what goth developpedd into?
Try Razed in Black. Try Apoptygma Berserk. Try Cruxshadows. Try Rasputina. but don't even pretend that goth has anythign to do with, or any influence on the nu-metal that you rotate.

So you like different music.... so what? everyone does. just because something isn't goth doesn't mena it isn't cool. My tastes in other music range from Enya to Public Enemy. I dont' need to pretend they're goth just to bullshit myself in my identity crisis. Want to know why? It's because I don't have one. I did my identity crisis thing when you were in grade school, and I am secure in saying that I'm gothic... whatever that means.

So I'm going to continue reading Sandman and dressing in black, and singing the machine beat from Moldavia in the shower, thank you.