I personally adore japanese styles and though I have no lolita dresses or anything of the sort I think it can look quite good depending on the person.



I agree I think the entire look, is far better on girls than guys. But I have to say only a few girls can really pull off the look well and not look like an overgrown child who has raided a dress up box. I think the whole "lolita" thing is based off of trying to appear younger. Japanese culture is very into youth at least from my observations.
As for the androgny, I whole heartedly agree, if one has ever seen anime one will see that pretty quickly. I have to point out the males and females to other people when I watch anime. they look to similar for some to tell apart.
But at the end of the day, I love the gothic lolita look, it reminds of a beautiful glass doll

Sorry if I'm wrong but it seems as though people are associating the goth japanese style with the girly maid outfits and only the girly maid outfits. There are plenty of unisex japanese punk rave clothes that aren't girly. Lolita is probably not the word I'm looking for. Although some outfits are questionable, they aren't straight up girl clothes. From time to time they'll have traits on the unisex clothing that seem somewhat feminine, like for example, some articles will include pants that detach into short shorts, though you don't have to wear them that way.

I personally have a sweatshirt that I purchased that has anime style ears or something of the sort on the hood. At the time of purchase I didn't know it had them. Regardless, I don't wear the hood up so people don't notice them any way. Anyways, I was never really someone who cared much. In any of my goth clothing sets, nearly all of my body is covered and layered except my head. I wear slim fit clothing in layers. Arm warmers, layers over my shoes, I wear waist belts that cover most of my waist, gloves and scarfs. In certain situations, if the pants have holes or openings I will wear leggings underneith. I always thought the less skin people show the better. If I ever want to show off my thin shape that I exercise for, I will simply wear slim fit clothing to compliment it.

I'm personally into youth myself. In fact, if you look at my pictures in my signature I look like I'm 13.

No you are quite right, I did overlook the punk side of Japanese gothic clothing. The funny thing is, that there is a huge difference in the lolita that we speak of and the avarage lolita girl. They wear lots of pastel hues rather than black. In fact lolita has nothing to do with goth in any way shape or orm, so really they can hardly compare. But I see where you are coming from.
Well yeah, I think the androgny is really gorgeous looking as long as it is done correctly. Sometimes it comes off too drag queen-ish. But I do think the shorts/pants idea sounds really cool.
Wow I have to say your style sounds quite impressive, I find that people now in these days try to show off as much skin as possible. Good for you for not doing such.
Not to sound creepy, but the Japanese culture in obsessed with youth in a perverted way. If I am wrong PLEASE forgive me I meant NO offense this is my speculation. If I am wrong PLEASE correct me too.

With the detachable shorts pants I have, I wear tartan leggings under them, detach the bottoms of the pants so they become more like leg warmers, then I keep them attached with suspender or boot clips.

As far as revealing clothes goes, there are certain girls I found attractive, then they wore shorts so I was better able to recognize their weight through the extra pounds on their legs. It is as if people think that just because their shorts are fingertip length, it is acceptable. I just think decency and dignity are great things to have and I believe the way to achieve this is through covering up. I might sound crazy but that's my personal opinion. Of course this applies only to being out in public.

On the plus side, it keeps your skin from the sun.

Oh, and yeah, asia is very obsessed with youth in a perverted way, that's the whole school girl thing they're into. This is one reason I don't like Japan very much, everything is school girls and sex appeal with no restrictions. Of course we have that sex sells in the U.S. We're more restricted though it seems, after all, we're not selling used school girl panties in vending machines.

Lastly, no offense taken. I like you, you are very respectable.

You do realise that the average woman has genetics ideal for added lower-body mass, and specifically excess lower-body muscle, for a reason, right? If you can't figure that reason out, your hint is that you were once that reason, yourself.

And oh, may the gods truly forbid that you find a girl's legs too thick!

You know, it's attitudes like that which contribute to the fact that there was an eating disorder clinic at all that I volunteered at during my junior and senior years in high school. And fact: I've known bulimics who are 5'10", 90lbs, and still have 15% body fat. Why is this? Some bodies are genetically designed to burn off muscle mass before burning off fat mass. Why? The brain needs a bare minimum of 8% body fat to function properly, and sometimes the genes prioritise peak mental function over minimal proper musculo-skeletal and/or kidney function.



And the Japanese tend to find Amerikans peculiar.

An old flat-mate of mine spent a year studying in Japan, and last I heard from her about the "school girls and sex appeal with no restrictions", all of five years ago, you're actually pretty danged wrong. While, true, that it's generally socially acceptable for Japanese adolescents to be sexually active, promiscuity and pregnancy before marriage are frowned upon there as in Western society. Also, Japanese sexual mores developed independently of mainland Asia; as per Japanese culture, their sexual interest is not perverted ("turned away from what is right"), it's Westerners who are perverse --and when you think about all the various hang-ups and taboos that Westerners, especially Amerikans, have toward sex and sexuality, I can't say they're not onto something with that thought.

Additionally, several surveys published in the last decade, suggest that Japanese interest in sexual activity, on a generalised national scale, has been on a sharp enough decline to affect birth rate. Now there could be all sorts of reasons for this, but clearly the Japanese are not all about "school girls and sex appeal with no restrictions".

Now, the used-panty-vending-machines, supposedly that ended in 1993 due to difficulties with how to regulate the contents of the machines, but readers of Snopes say otherwise --on the other hand, Snopes is careful to just state that readers claim to have seen them (as recently as July 2007, anyway), but lacking any photographs, I'm suspicious. My old flat-mate and other friends of mine who've been to Japan claim they've never seen such things (though they simply may not have gone anywhere that those particular machines were set up), but re-iterate what the Snopes piece says, that a general vending machine culture is big in Japan. I've also found other articles from sources I don't trust as much as Snopes stating, as recently as 2008, there has been government activism against used panties in vending machines in Japan. It seems if the infamous "used panty machines" still exist at all in Japan, they're only housed in certain districts of cities with a thriving sex-worker culture (strippers, prostitution --NOT geisha, traditional geisha are actually forbidden from selling sex), and this is probably the only sort of place said vending machines *ever* existed --but, of course, the Internet and Western culture being what they are, news of that relative oddity spread amongst Anglophones like wildfire, and now the typical first/only-language of English-speaking Internet user seems to think that soiled "schoolgirl panties" are vended at virtually every street-corner in Tokyo (a few searches also suggest that other used panties, purportedly worn by nurses and schoolteachers, amongst other women, are also a common fetish in Japan and have been seen sold alongside schoolgirl panties in shops and possibly vending machines --but no mention of that in Internet lore, cos it doesn't make the Japanese look like a bunch of freaky perverts). It seems far more common to find vending machines selling fresh (read: unused, brand-new) panties, specifically of a style a young woman might hope would impress a date.

Now, the Japanese aren't completely open about their sexuality, even traditionally, and certain fetishes may serve as an embarrassment depending on one's age, class, and other traits --thus vending machines for certain pornographic items and sexual aids, so one can just take their item from an impersonal box, stuff it casually into their bag, and have minimal fear of being seen entering certain sorts of shops. Vending machines for all sorts of things are common in Japan, from sodas to hot lunch items to umbrellas and emergency neckties, though those items are popular in vending machines at, say, tube stations and the like, for convenience.

That said, while the way Japanese typically regard women as "beautiful" when they seem and act more adolescent than grown-up (this is also a grossly simplistic view --much like many of the ways one can summarise Western ideals of femininity in a single sentence) is it really that much stranger than the popular "Catholic school girl" fetish in the States? Is it really that much stranger than the progressively stronger trend of the last century and some, especially in the States, to prolong childhood in adolescents and young adults? Seriously, until about the mid-Victorian, children were practically miniature adults, and this was truer and truer the further from Leisure Class one was born, and in a century-and-a-half, Western society has gone from the average "marrying age" for women of approximately 16 in the mid-19th (up from about 14 in 500BCE) to about 25 now (traditionally, the "marrying age" for men was significantly older, especially amongst the middle and upper classes, but in the last couple centuries, has significantly grown closer and closer to the expected age for women to marry). Hell, the first decade of US-based teen girl magazine, SEVENTEEN, included adverts for china and silver patterns --as if expecting young women to marry soon soon after graduation from school; a mere seventy years later, such adverts in the same magazine would appal parents and not necessarily because of the amount of feminism that has been mainstreamed, but because few parents in 2012 believe that 18-21 is genuinely old enough for a young woman to get married. Most people I know, and this is truer and truer the higher on the Class pyramid one is born, don't even consider 21-year-olds to be "emotionally mature" and thus not "real adults" yet --even though, legally, they are 100% adult; a mere hundred-and-fifty years ago, 21 was the age most people had been married about four or five years and already had at least one child. If anything, the Japanese are simply more direct than Western society, especially Amerikans, in their fascination with prolonged neoteny, especially in women. If you really examine the two cultures, the differences seem minute, and it's impossible to say with any logical conclusiveness which culture is genuinely stranger.

Teal Dear version:
Dude, seriously. You started this thread to extol the aesthetics of gothwear coming out of Asian cultures. Quit ragging on Japan as some sort of paragon of perverse when you clearly know nothing and (at best) understand little about the culture. I may not be Japanese, I may only have a handful of friends aspiring to be henna gaijin, some of whom have actually lived there for significantly longer than a single summer, but I think I'm safe in stating that I have significantly more of an understanding of Japanese culture than you do, and yet I absolutely admit that I don't understand nearly as much as others, especially not as much as the Japanese themselves.

It would do you well to talk about things that you actually know and understand, rather than merely parroting back stuff the Internet told you.

Mr. Fairy, I'm not going to have another thread closed while debating with you. As I have already said, if you want to debate, privately message me and we will have a debate. Not here.

Wow, I found myself learning quite a bit more about their culture and you`re right, the school girl vs catholic girl thing between the two cultures aren`t that far apart from one another. And I most definitely agree about western culture prolonging childhood (while at the same time complaining about how kids aren`t growing up).

I always found fascination with the Japanese, mostly in art as I`m an artist and find their art very influential in my style and highly inspiring and I enjoy the way they tell stories. So interest in their culture branched off from there. So I found this especially fascinating to read about some things being straightened out. Thanks for sharing!

Your shorts sound pretty cool, have you ever worn a kilt? I have one friend who wore one to a party with me, but that was only because I begged him to.
Yes for me, I think being decent and not having most of one's chest, back, legs, and every where else exposed. I despise going to the beach, and when I do I never swim, but stay on shore covered up with a parasol. Anyhow, why let every boy on the street know exactly how you look? Better keep them wondering.
Yes the added coverage from the sun is a wonderful bonus!

Once I tried to buy some dresses from a Japanese website and my Dad had a heart attack on me, because he worked there and I wasn't knowledgable at the time on what exactly the clothes meant. They were the equivelent of a strapless tube dress here. Now that I've watched anime, I can see how they are obessed with youth. Quite sad really, the outfits really are cute.

Thank you, I find you quite interesting, and I hardly ever say that about anyone

To FairyInBoots
Who cares if a guy sees that girls legs are thicker? Of course they are, but that does not mean that everyone should walk around in repulsive shorts. I myself have known lots of people with eating disorders, and I'm not saying that girls NEED to be pencil thin. For heavens sake, I am far from being very thin, but I work out so that when I get dressed in the morning I don't hate the body I see in the mirror.

As for the Japanese thing, I was merely pointing out what the dresses can be compared to. I was not saying that all Japanese people are all perverts, I lived with a Japanese girl for two months. I personally adore the culture and I plan on living there someday. Yes, I also think the sex acts here in America are perverted too. I am disgusted with how cheap it has become, and also I think everyone has at least some sort of fetish inside of them. So I'm not hating on the Japanese culture, and I will most likely end up buying some of their style of clothing someday.
I also believe Mr. Tony wasn't trying to "rag" on the culture either.
hope this was an understable reply.

I'm not going to PM you because I have naught interest in debating you. This is not a matter of two equally logical but controversial ideas that might benefit from the mental masturbation of debating --this is bout you stating things about another culture that are a combination of factually incorrect and misunderstood to the point of being completely ludicrous. Ever notice that you're the only person I butt heads with like this? Perhaps the problem isn't me? Ever consider that? Perhaps you should take the advice I offered in closing? Cos really, talking crap about things you clearly don't understand, especially when you're being offensively xenophobic in the process, is highly unbecoming, young master.

Also: Dude, seriously, I've tried to be subtle with my "[sic]" annotations for a couple months now, but it's WHETHER. Don't make me get The Oatmeal to kick you in the hemmies. You're incredibly lucky that you didn't go to the Catholic school I went to if you're out of high school and still can't figure out which homophone to use. I mean, we all type ahead of ourselves sometimes and occasionally miss something in proofreading, but you've made a clear habit of this and I only point this out to help you.

PS: You haven't earned the right to call me Mr Fairy.



Oh, yes. There are clear differences between the cultures, but honestly, the schoolgirl thing in Japan isn't significantly stranger than a lot of the socially acceptable kinks and such in the States. Is it a bit more widespread? Maybe, but there are a lot of widespread Western kinks that give the Japanese a raised eyebrow.



Glad you appreciated it! I have the amazing ability to remember entire conversations and most of what I read, so my brain is like a complex filing system of information I never think will be handy, until it is.

And yes, Japanese art is just stunning. I had a t-shirt for a long time with a reprint of a 14thC geisha painting on the front, and wore it literally to bits.


You seem to be taking this awfully personally.

Not at all, tis merely a personal view.

I had no quarrel with anything in particular you had said prior, so your apparent tone seems rather confusing. But honestly, I know plenty of people who eat low-fat, no excess sugars, moderate protein, and plenty of fibre and leafy greens, exercise for an hour a day, and are of a bulky build, anyway. They're healthy, they're clearly fit, but still large for their frame. This is not an uncommon phenomenon, and it's those most adversely affected by the inherent classism of body politics that are unhappiest with the way they look.

And yes, the body politics of heaviness is a class prejudice and there's absolutely more than the fabled "willpower" and "bootstraps" or lack thereof that contribute to a person's size.
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/prejudice-heavy-women-persists-weight-loss-study-finds-article-1.1087868

Also, the "classic" (as in: totally made up in the 1970s) wisdom of "[moderate] calories in + [excess] calories out = weight loss" is flawed and far from a universally-true method of weight management (and even if it seems true for some, one might not be burning fat), and Harvard even says so: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/19/health/19brody.html?_r=1


All this said, I do, though, see a significant difference in what I infer as your intentions in saying what you did, and, well, young master Tony's statement that he thought certain women were attractive until he saw them in shorts and noticed their thighs were thicker than he liked. Oh my numerous gods, I thought I was appearance-focused in finding people (presumably, sexually) attractive. I mean, sure, some people pass a threshold where I will never find them sexually attractive, but I'm not so specific that, say, a slight muffin-top would suddenly render some poor bloke irrevocably unattractive to me (maybe if it's "significantly" more than slight, but that would depend on the gent in question and how well he carries it, if he dresses in a flattering manner or is at least willing to be dressed so --and even then, one unflattering outfit does not render a once-attractive body to be suddenly unattractive, an unflattering outfit means they're an attractive body in an outfit that does not properly flatter the body's features).

I get that people have preferences for certain bodies over others, and this matters more to some people than to others. Fair enough --I just can't get into dating some-one I don't find at least 75% sexually attractive, so I'm not trying to shame people their preferences. But if the young man whose comment offended me is so indurated about his own that he'll openly proclaim that the slightest flaw renders some bodies that he once believed to be attractive enough suddenly not so, then honestly, I think any woman, even one he finds a stunning specimen of beauty eternal, is better off without him.

But then again, hey, chubby girls and gay men (especially chubby gay men) are natural allies. But then again, my "chubby girls" aren't technically / currently fat (P's weight has fluctuated since her teens, and she's pretty muscular so she's always been significantly heavier than she looks; S is a recovering bulimic who's at a BMI-recommended weight now, but was one of the "fat bulimics" I mentioned and still maintains 15% body fat, now), but if one made a print-out of their photos and their histories, study groups on three different continents suggest that, statistically, they'll still be treated as "fat".

Not a kilt but usually the ones that just go around the back with the legs free in the front. I really value detail so I'll put together many different styles in combinations. Usually the more accessories you have the more completed the look. After a while it all seems to come together as a sort of armor or set when all worn at once. Having the extra back extension just adds more detail to the outfit as a whole.

I am in agreement with the covering up at the beach. I swim as little as possible, though my work encourages us to get in the pool with our consumers, I find it very hard to cover up in anyway as I am a guy. Many of my co-workers don't swim because I believe they are shy about their weight so I feel obligated to do the job when others are not. Of course if I didn't have to swim I woulden't. and yes, I also don't like letting most of me show at once, it's better to keep them guessing.

I have also considered moving to Japan a couple years ago. They're appreciation for fashion really appeals to me, plus they have some great clubs. It just woulden't be fun to dress up down there because everyone else is dressed up. I would be competing with all of them to look unique. Then again, I'd be known as the crazy white guy that dresses goth.

-- Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:51 am --



I had been calling you Mr. Fairy out of respect as that is how I adress most guys that I know. You have me wondering if you're nit-picking.

It very much seems as though you are attempting to lure me into one of your debates. I do respect your opinion and do understand that you are likely speak out in situations where you see fit, the issue is not your view, or who is right or wrong, we just cannot do this publicly as it can go on for days or even weeks. So, as I said, right or wrong, whatever you believe, talk to me in PM or heck, if you want to debate over a mic conversation I will.

I haven't been watching your posts, though I have no doubt that you are willing to debate with others easily as I believe you enjoy doing so.

and hey, I did go to a Catholic school.

Let's keep it civil in here, please, peeps. If any of you want to debate in more detail, take it to PM.

I had a friend who lived there for years and she said that almost every person looked like they had stepped oof the runway, so you do have a point. We have the advantage that we are of a different nationality though

Yeah, it would be interesting to see. I'm a little bit concerned with the state the country is in now though with their plant meltdown.