I have never read that, actually, but am now very interested in doing so.

What else do you expect from someone with his intelligence? I'm surprised he doesn't have his own C3P0 assembled and correcting all of our grammar, already! ^_^

Well to be fair... it *was* for school.....

Really though, I just had a good school with a great subject selection and some very dedicated teachers. If I run into them around town I tend to end up talking for ages. I've got very good memories of seconday school.

Also I'm building me a T3M4 someday soon. Soooon....

That's good. I only have fond memories of a few teachers from school. I'm pretty sure none of them would remember me if I saw them, though.

Waiting for progress reports on the t3.

Ever heard of a concept called the "technomyth"? Crichton mentioned it in the novel The Lost World. Essentially, our culture has lost all belief in the old myths, so we devise brand new ones. Stuff common to conspiracy/paranormal circles or urban legends? High probability it's all technomyths. Aliens at Area 51? Technomyth. Somebody invented a car engine that gets 100 miles per gallon or uses synthetic gasoline instead of fossil fuel, but the Big Oil companies hold the patent and won't release such an engine because it could threaten their energy monopoly? Technomyth. The Nazca lines as an ancient "spaceport"? Technomyth. AIDS released by the military to kill off homosexuals? Tesla's lost inventions? The CIA/Kremlin trained a bunch of kids to kill with their minds? Some scientist figured out how to clone himself and his son is really his clone? All technomyths. I'm not saying there isn't some truth to some of the technomyths out there. Remember what a myth is: it's a method of explaining the world around us, of revealing the mysteries of the natural world and of society. Just because something is a "myth" doesn't mean it isn't true or that it doesn't have some kernel of truth to it.

Allow me to illustrate...

All myths or religious systems have a god or gods, a "pantheon", if you will. We all figure this out in, what, junior high? Bullfinch's Mythology, anyone? Look at our modern culture. See anyone worshiping the old gods en masse? Do even the Abrahamic religions, which have endured to this day and are so ubiquitous in Western culture, get anywhere near the positive press they used to?

We, as a civilization, have lost our old gods, thus we must fashion new idols to worship. Ever wonder why comic book characters have such fantastic powers? Ever wonder why fanboys tend to worship them with an almost cult-like fervor? Why Trekkies parade about in very Norse-like Klingon garb and speak a language completely made up by paid linguists that sounds like something Vikings might have spoken? We make new gods to replace the old ones. This isn't all that new a truth; you're probably nodding your heads as you read this because you have either already figured this out on your own, or because I'm not the only fool to mention this.

Look at Hollywood. Behold, friends! They are your new gods! Actors and actresses, in all their pomp and glory, are your new objects of worship and adoration!

Case in point...



Didn't all the old pantheons involve some form of incest among the gods? Between gods and their followers? Didn't ancient kings often marry family members (for very different reasons, of course)? Congratulations to Morgan Freeman (one of my favorite actors, oddly enough) for making my point for me.

Additionally: sex is always a part of religion. We worship sex. We are mystified by it, enslaved to it, so we include it in our religions. Name one religion that either doesn't have loads of sex in it, that doesn't have entire festivals or gods/goddesses devoted to sex or the human reproduction cycle (or even plant reproduction cycles, for harvest cultures) or that doesn't mention sex or regulate sex in some way. You can't, can you?

Religion and sexuality go hand-in-hand.



For the same reason pornography addictions have ruined marriages: sex-worship, pure and simple. Hera is beautiful, but she is also one of the divine symbols of family. She isn't seen as a sex object. She is the matron, the ruling female, something many males perceived as a threat to their masculinity. Aphrodite, on the other hand? An ancient sex object through and through. Look at her and other ancient "goddesses of love" (what kind of "love", pray tell?). Aren't they usually depicted nude? How many paintings of a naked Aphrodite litter the Renaissance works? How many ancient statuettes of a naked Ishtar holding her breasts provocatively have been found by archaeologists? This is why Aphrodite was chosen over Hera, for the same reason young men hang images of Jenna Jameson on their dorm room walls instead of photographs of Dame Judi Dench. Both are beautiful, but both have a different kind of beauty. Judi Dench - a matron of the silver screen - is more stately, elegant and regal. She is not a sex object.

Which actresses do men worship more: those with good acting skills, or those who have graced the covers of Maxim? The answer is obvious.

Morgan Freeman is not a god.

The makers of Bruce Almighty might disagree. :p

All kidding aside, I'm not saying he is a literal "god". I'm saying We The People - the masses (not anyone in particular, mind you!) - tend to worship celebrities the way ancient people worshiped gods and goddesses. We make these people into gods (or when we vilify them, we make them into our own personal devils) because we don't put as much stock in the old deities as we used to.

I don't see a need for any deities, past or future. Some people do seem to have a weird need to deify people or things. I ranted about that in another thread(pet peeves, maybe?).

That's because you have what is known as a "working brain".

Although a major difference is that our celebrity "gods" don't get to meddle in our personal lives, as the gods of the ancients did (according to what ancient people believed, anyway).

Actually, it's quite the opposite, as the public meddles in the lives of our celebrity "gods" -- via stalking, cell phone hacking, etc.

-- Nephele

Agent Black: Wow....Just wow.



It is vital to know that not everyone within the culture of today has lost all belief in the old gods. Many still worship these gods and live as closely as the can to 'the old ways'.



Every age has myths, urban legends, etc and so forth that are created to suit, mystify, amaze, scare, etc the average person. Is this a replacement of sorts of the gods and the old myths? I do not see it as such. It could be to some though. I see it more as evolution doing what it does best. As time continues new myths will be created to suit the times. That is the way of things. However it does not mean that the older myths die or is otherwise dismissed. Someone, somewhere will always believe and so long as at least one person believes I will continue to consider it relevant.



I do not think that the society at large has worshiped numerous gods since the spreading of the Christian faith. Yes there are many pagans, wiccans, polytheists among us (I being one of them) and we are making a come back in today's age.

However, looking at history, Christianity did a lot to wipe out all forms of paganism from society. Throughout its history we have been killed for our beliefs to the point most lived in fear and secrecy. Even today polytheists are not exactly looked on with an overly tolerant accepting eye.

So I do not believe that we have lost touch with the myths of old because they are that (old, I mean) but because a number of things, one being the view that society has had on pagans since the emergence of Christianity as a super-power in itself. How do you expect belief in the old ways to be prevalent when we are taught as children that they are simply myths and told to be good christian people? for many, it can be hard not get past that. Most will simply follow in the religious footfalls of their sires.



This is actually interesting. However, again, not everyone has lost the gods. As a civilization- yeah technically perhaps we have (history seen to that most thoroughly, I'd say) but the interest in these gods and the myths surrounding them are still plentiful. And though I understand your position quite clearly (and find it fascinating) I must say that I disagree with it, at least to an extent.

I think it really depends on your definition of 'gods' and 'worship' as to whether these people have created new idols to replace the old ones. I don't see it. A person can live and breathe something without literally worshiping it. I apply goth to my life, but I sure as hell do not worship 'goth'. I think the same can be said of movies and such. You can love something to the point that it takes over your life, but I do not exactly connect that to worship of a god.

To worship a god, I think you must first acknowledge it is a god (at least to you). I suppose if acknowledge that you see this thing as a god and you worship accordingly THEN you might be able to apply that way of thinking.

However, I do not see it as replacing the old gods per say more than applying polytheism into your life in the way that works best for you.In these cases, I do not see it as 'replacing' the gods more than evolving them, if that makes sense.

As for movies and such taking on characteristics of the myths (like the Scandinavian mythology of the Norse) I see the point yet at the same time I am hesitant to agree. Just like the super heroes. Men create based on what they know and what they wish they themselves could achieve or witness. Therefore taking the myths and modernizing them, giving superhero traits etc to comic book characters, etc...I do not see it as taking on the old myths more than man creating what they imagine and using the past to represent it- to an extent.



I do not worship movies, actors or the like. Again, you can adore, respect, follow, etc... these people but worship and gods is a personal thing. You cannot just say that because a person idolizes something that they are spiritually worshiping it. To me, this is not the same thing. My spiritually runs deeper than what I see in the media.



By this point, I do think you are using the term 'worship' much to loosely. I must admit, this made me smile for ear to ear. I think we are infatuated with sex, revere it, love it, etc... (gods know I do) but I do not worship it. Now, you can worship it, in a sense. In Hinduism they have statues of genitalia where people ask for fertility to these statues and the gods whom reign over them, but does that mean they worship SEX or things that run much more deeply than that? Let us not forget that Christianity (which CAN be considered a mythology by some) has strict morals concerning sex as if it is something to be avoided unless married- and even then- sex is just well...there. However sex must have been on people's minds a lot to have had so many rules and shit about it in the bible. I do not see this as worship though. Myself, I love sex. I like to talk about sex, discuss sex, debate about sex, etc... but I do not worship it. I think it can be used in worship, but not the object of- at least not in my life and probably not in the lives of many others as well.




Sex worship ruins marriage through porno? Really? My marriage was not ruined because we both like porn. I seriously think that, in instances as mentioned above, beauty is simply in the eye of the beholder. Of course a 'sex symbol' will be talked of more often, but that does not make the elegant matron any less attractive my others. I choose elegance over 'she's fucking hot' any day. It all depends on how it is carried and how you view it. Hera, though beautiful had a lot of issues.

Like i said above, sex can be loved and used in worship, but that does not make it the sole source of worship. Aphrodite was more than the just the goddess of love, and I am sure that people did not just view her as a sex symbol and went to her for many different reason.



You should include women too, as there are bi-sexual and lesbians on the board. As it is, I am more attracted to a person who can act. Maybe at firs their sexiness may sway me, but no skills means that the movie fucking sucks and I will not watch it again, no matter how good the actors look. As for commercials, what can I say? Sex sells, people know it.

And again, exactly how are you using the term 'worship' because, in terms of spirituality, I think your term and mine differ.

As for the changing old gods in newer models but use of mordern idealism and techonology, though I see where you are coming from I find it hard to exactly disagree. What you see as that, I see as evolution in progress. That is the way things work. For me so long as people continue to learn about the old ways, the myths and gods, then I do not see them as holding no sway over people.

I'd also like to note that I believe all gods and goddesses are of the same beginning. So no matter who or what you worship in terms of gods and goddesses, they all lead you to the same place. So no matter the name or how many, it does not matter.

I do not want you to think I am attacking you, i am not. I actually think that your post was freakin' awesome, but i just had to give my two cents. I wish I could have made more sense and focused my thoughts better, no doubt after I post I'll want to add a ton of shit, but this is it for now.

I cannot say I agree with you (reasons stated above) but for the sake of an open mind I will not wholly dismiss it completely. In a way, perhaps your ideology and mind are alike, but in others there surely is no comparison.

ADDING:



Let us not attack religion shall we? That seemed as if you were calling spiritual people mindless.

Black Agent, it's always a good idea to read the Rules of a forum that you've just joined. Here are our rules regarding the often touchy subject of religion: A Note on Religion.

I'm sure you meant your comment as a genuine compliment to Wolfmammy, and I'm going to presume that you intended no slight to our members who also happen to be theist.

You'll find that there are a lot of people here at Goth.net with working brains – both theist and atheist alike. People without working brains don't last very long at Goth.net.

-- Nephele

[/quote]

You might actually consider that an "improvement" in religion, as it definitely gets the people more involved in religion than they are in, say, all the bull our elected leaders get to pull off while they're too busy stalking celebrities.

Think of it this way: in ancient religions, the gods were far removed from those who worshiped them. If your god was, say, Zeus, he lived on Mount Olympus while you toiled away in a slave pit in some minuscule Roman province. Could you do anything other than pray to him and hope he heard you or cared enough to answer your prayer? No. Even worse, the Greek/Roman deities - actually, many of the deities of various pantheons were like this - weren't as omnipresent/omniscient as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Chances were, as you were praying to Zeus, Zeus was off having another affair with some attractive mortal woman.

Now look at today's "gods", the stars and starlets of the Media. They're human, which makes them much more accessible (in our minds, anyway). Because they're real people we can identify with them easier. We can imagine meeting them on the street or running into them in the grocery store much easier than we could imagine being called up into the heavenlies to chat to Thor or Raiden. We can doubt the existence of Thor or Raiden because they are not human. (Sadly,) I cannot doubt the existence of, say, Miley Cyrus, because there is evidence of her existence. More than just evidence! If she is a person, like me, then she must have a residence, a cell phone number I could call, a Twitter feed I might be able to follow... Do you see what I mean here? The new Hollywood pantheon is much more interactive than the pantheons of old because these are real people we're dealing with and not merely mythological figures, even though we hype them up to mythological levels.

A parody of my point would be the "Chuck Norris facts". Though this is purely a humorous example, it is a valid example of one man being hyped up to nearly superhuman status. Granted, it's all in good fun, but do the masses know where the fantasy ends and reality begins? In his book I Am Not Spock, Leonard Nimoy tells a story of a trip he took to the grocery store where a woman was staring at him for a long time. When he finally asked her what was wrong, she replied by asking him, "What's wrong with your ears?" She was so used to seeing him as Spock she had no idea he had normal human ears like everybody else.

This story, however, further illustrates my point: the Hollywood pantheon promises interaction. (Sure, the woman met Leonard Nimoy for a few brief moments in a grocery store, but her brief interaction with him was not only something she will remember for the rest of her days, it was even immortalized in a book he wrote. How often did that happen during the 1970s?) Yes, the ancients could pray to their gods, but could they truly commune with them? Since those gods seem to have gone in seclusion, if they were ever real at all, we'll never know. Could the masses commune with their Hollywood gods? Possibly! Want to meet one of your idols? Go to a red carpet movie premiere. Is your idol someone like Kevin Smith? Show up at a comic book convention he has scheduled an appearance at. Big fan of Tommy Lee Jones? He often shows up in the neighboring city a few miles from my current location; just frequent the steak house he enjoys eating at, you're certain to catch him at least once. Know what stores a particular starlet likes to shop at? Your chances of meeting her just rose. It's this promise of interaction that keeps some Hollywood icons famous long after their agents stopped calling them for new auditions.




Of course. I'm making a generality here. Do the old gods command the respect they once did? The number of adherents? The temple sacrifices? They don't. Those who live as close as they can to the old ways are a small remnant compared to what they once were. Again, I am generalizing here. Of course there are always those who paddle against the tide; such individuals or groups are what make life more interesting. However, I am referring only to the general populace of the civilized nations, "the masses", if you will. I just assumed that was understood. *shrugs*



I never specified why the old myths are no longer as prevalent as they once were. I only stated that they are not. As a Christian well aware of the particulars of my religion's history, I already know the details. As I stated earlier, the viewpoints expressed in the earlier post were merely generalizations.



It does. In the case of cinema or literature, we have the interesting facet that many of these characters - be they comic book heroes, literary characters, protagonists of our favorite television series or the mythmakers themselves (actual Hollywood actors/actresses, directors, writers, etc) - weren't initially intended to be so adored. When Gene Roddenberry sat down to chat with an unheard-of actor named Leonard Nimoy about the details of the "Martian" science officer he would be playing, neither of them had any idea that Commander Spock would wind up so ingrained in modern culture. When Seigel and Shuster created Superman, they did so as a way to make a quick buck and blow off some of the stress of living during the Great Depression with a harmless fantasy yarn about a vigilante hero from some other world. They had no idea their character would be re-written as an alien messiah figure decades later.

However, some characters are devised with their creator/s knowing full well (or hoping, anyway) that the character will become wildly popular (and hopefully sell lots of toys made in the character's likeness). I point to the "Star Wars" films for examples of that.



Again, generalization. Not referring to any individuals here, just to the masses. Please don't take my statements personally, 'kay? Look at the often unhealthy fixation the masses seem to have with celebrities and tell me it doesn't seem like a little more than mere respect or adoration.



On that point, I do admit that I was.



I don't want to know what was on Moses' mind when he wrote down all the rules against bestiality. Seriously, was it so major a problem at the time that laws had to be written about it??

I'm joking, of course...



You've got to admit, though, our culture seems rather obsessed with it, to an almost unhealthy extent (though the blame for a lot of that has been placed on religious repression of sexuality before).



When guys spend more time with pornography instead of with their wives working out their marriage - cases of which are documented - then pornography has progressed to the point of addiction. Again, I'm using the term "worship" rather loosely here, I grant you. Also, once again, I'm generalizing.



NO argument there!



Not to mention women who like, say, Tom Cruise because he's "gorgeous" over, say, Tom Hanks. Didn't mean to pick on men solely there; we males are simply an easier target.



As I said before, I was generalizing.



For gods this may be true. For legends of, say, aliens tucked away in some secret air base? Not so much. One McDonald's employee worships Jesus. One other worships Thor. No matter how much they discuss, debate or compare their deities, they both still work at McDonald's. Now, let's change that out. One believes aliens have been living on Earth for a while and one does not. Depending on how vocal the one that believes in aliens living in Area 51 is about his beliefs, he could wind up in the nut-house... or at a UFO symposium as a headline speaker.

Then again, I could apply that model to religious adherents, too... I concede the point there. (And yes, I realize, by "same place" you refer to the Afterlife. I was being facetious.)



You kiddin'? I thought you focused your thoughts really well! And no, I didn't take any of it as an attack. :3






MAJOR apologies!! Didn't mean to attack religion itself, as I am myself a religious man (though I balk at being referred to as "religious"; can't think of a better term at the moment, and calling myself "spiritual" feels like a cop-out). I did, however, mean that comment as an attack against the celebrity-crazed society we live in that pays more attention to what Paris Hilton wound up in rehab for than to what elected/appointed leaders in various nations are doing that could totally screw up our lives.

I was gonna say that we weren't attacking people who are religious at all! We were simply agreeing about the idiocy of people who worship celebrities, cars, designer labels, all that jazz.

ETA~ I kind of understand Agent Black's loose definition of the term 'worship'. When I was a kid we were raised Baptist and they teach you pretty much that having any kind of interest in worldly possessions is 'worshipping' them. Basically, if you do anything besides go to church and pray, then you're worshipping something worldly. Even having a favourite toy is the same as having a 'false idol' before god. That's just some of the crap that made me leave the religion.

Well shit.

He saw right through you there Wolfy.

Rong.

Just following in the footsteps of all fellows like Odysseus and Aeneus who told to gods where to shove it