I didn't say they were Goth in the way we would think. But they did have an influence on the subculture either way you slice it. *That* is what I'm talking about.

Interesting parallel. Bob is not a hippy (folk/folk-rock more like it) but is beloved by them. The fans claim the artists, I think that is more valid in an artist persuing their music, and not targeting a demographic. Unlike others who try to classify themselves, irrespective of their true direction. Got me thinking this has.

I aims to please! But the problem is... How far can fans go in "defining" an artist before that definition becomes intrusive, or, worse, downright insulting?

I don't see anything insulting about calling an artist 'Goth' or saying that they definitely influenced Goth. It's not defining an artist to say that they influenced a genre. Although, I do consider Dylan a freakin' hippie.

While I see your point, consider (and we'll take Robert Smith as an example); if the artist is adamant that they're not a part of a particular subculture - whatever that subculture may be - is it actually showing that person any respect to try and drag them into it against their wishes? How is it being a "fan" to say, "Well, okay, Robert, you say you're not a goth, but guess what? You're wrong!" Please however remember that I'm certainly not arguing against The Cure having influenced the goth scene - they certainly have; to return to my previous list, The Beatles influenced the sound of mod bands; Iggy Pop was an influence on Punk Rock; Bowie was an icon and influence to the New Romantic scene. But they were not a PART of it, and claims otherwise are just... wrong.

Bein' Australian and all, before adding properly to this thread I thought I might add to this and comment on these links.

I'm aware this post was from May however, if you guys aren't sure I'm quite sure they scrapped the filter. The govmnt. knows they're SHIT at filtering (I online shop in class on this so-called educational lap top, the joys of not visiting mainstream sites!). But from what I know the filter was mainly to stop porn, well, freeporn which can be viewed by minors, as this is illegal anyway (though they can't get rid of shit like Landover Baptist). I once sent them an email requesting a ban or censor of Landover Baptist due to discrimination etc. and the fact it was disgusting that any body, god-forbid a child may stumble upon it and take it seriously or see it for the parody that it is. Either way, as a parody or serious site it's discriminatory in a violent and vile way and nobody should have to see that. Turns out it ISN'T illegal... in the letter I recieved back from the governemnt body that deals with this, mainly porn available free or to minors was the main illegality.

But in regards to this thread-

I feel that everything evolves, subcultures included. I've listened to some Joy Division, a bit of Siouxsie (my fave!), Bela Lugosi's Dead from Bauhaus, and something else on the tradgoth list but I can't remember what.

So here's my story which actually has relevance if you look closely and wait till i'm finished. The other day, for the first time, I listeed to "Dead Souls" by Joy Division, unless it's named wrong 'cos mp3 Rocket sometimes does that to you. So I thought not "This is dark" I thought "This is some funky shiznik!". I actually thought those words, I haven't really heard much dark from any of the bands been suggested in various threads and sites containing info about goth. I just cannot see the darkness! If you guys can suggest certain songs for me that'd be great cos I'm starting to think there's something wrong with me... but all of Joy Division I;ve heard I kinda think it sounds... boppy... Maybe my mind is warped? Or it was considered dark due to the social standards at the time of it's composition? LIke Bill Haley and the Comets used to be rebellious? But now they're for "old farts" and teens like myself (yeah, Fats Domino, The Diamonds, Bill Haley and the Comets, The Crests... ALDI 3CD 50's set).

Though I can appreciate the tradgoth music, and like some of it (in "Digital" by Joy Division again mp3 Rocket possibly screwed the name OR artist, I love everything except the vocals, and I love Siouxsie), I can also see how way back when (yeah massive exaggeration, hyperbole I think it's called?) for you oldies (jokes, jokes ) it was dark. As I said if anybody would like to post some anmes of the particularly dark songs from the tradgoth bands it would be much appreciated to help determine my state of mental health.

Anyway, back to evolving, as I tried but possibly FAILED to point out in my story, something considered dark then, mightn't be considered dark now. Like they used to call knee-length skirts miniskirts for a time? How sex used to be considered only for procreation but is now for fun to a lot of people (and guiltlessly so)?

Do you kinda get what I'm trying to say? I'm not any ood at getting a point across *grumbles about the 'net and misunderstandings*.

Also with categories and subsets... I'd have no idea, I wouldn't call myself goth, I'd just say I have a lot in common with various aspects and subsets of the subculture, and I think I can safely say there's not many people like me around here.

A few months ago a Babybat came to one of my programs. I commented on her jewelry, and mentioned that I am an old Goth. She was visibly skeptical, but after I chatted with her a bit she warmed up and asked me what she needs to know to not be called a 'poser'. Right now, her Gothness is basically Hot Topic and a band who she calls her "favorite goth band", the Black Veil Brides.
I told her that she should know the history of the subculture. I told her that even if the original Goth bands are not her favorites, she should at least know who they were, what they sounded like, and their significance. I gave her a list of books on the Goth subculture and offered to help her get any of them on inter-library loan. I gave her a list of CD compilations, offering to burn copies for her of several out of print ones.
I never heard from her again. I've seen her a couple of times since, but she won't speak. I figure there are two probable reasons. A) She didn't like what I told her, or B) her mother didn't like what I told her. In our initial conversation she remarked that when she talked to her mother about being Goth, her mother declared that Goth is "so over" and rolled her eyes. It might be that seeing living proof that Goth not "over" was not what the Mother wanted to hear.
This story really has no meaning, but it is very interesting, I think. It does show that the old cliche about Elders tromping all over defenseless Babybats is not always true!

I once helped a kid who looked Emo pick out some decent eyeliner. He asked me for some band recommendations so I gave him a short list that included Joy Division, The Cure, The Sisters, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Christian Death and a few others that I can't recall right now. He came back in and thanked me a few weeks later. Too bad I couldn't have helped him in the fashion department. They must dive into the subculture of their own accord. If we force them or shove things down people's throats it will turn them away. I thought it was sweet that his grandmother was the one buying him the eyeliner and not even making a disparaging comment under her breath while we picked one out or while she paid! Way to go granny!

Some people will be turned off no matter what, though. And that's fine, too. Your friend's mother may have thought you were one of those pervy olde guys who preys on teenage girls in the subculture, despite your best intentions.

Could be, but seeing that I'm the Teen Librarian and the only place they see me is at work, I'm inclined towards the other two theories. I did show her a picture of myself with Matt Riser and DJ Mange outside the Knitting Factory. If someone sees Goth from a sanitized, Hot Topic music section sort of way (i.e. Goth-Pop), that pic might look a bit...er...radical.

It's normally a shock to see the difference between the real and the fake for people who have been spoonfed that 'this is goth, only this and nothing else!'

It's also a shock to learn when someone who told you they were in the scene almost a decade doesn't know squat about the music. Christian who? Kommunity what? Deathrock? Joy something? What's that?

ETA~ I mean, geez, I'm no freakin' expert but have a damn clue!

This is one of the big problems I have with many so-called "goth" DJ's. It's amazing how many 25 year old DJ's claim to have been "DJ'ing for 15 years", as if no one can do the math. And apparently, many people can't. (I was once basically called a "hater" for calling a DJ out on this kind of nonsense. It's OK to lie, but not OK for someone to bring it up....) Then you find that they are really Techno/Industrial dance DJ's, who know nothing at all about Goth music. When they sneer at you for requesting a Goth song, odds are that they have never even heard of the band, and they trying to cover their ignorance with arrogance.

Didn't you know it's the height of rudeness to tell the truth? Or to have a fair to good bullshit detector?

That's the way the 'scene" seems to operate! I am always amazed at how no one will say that what you're saying is untrue, but just that you have no right to say it. OK, so what do I get for my silence and complicity? An estate on the Riviera? A six figure (or even a two figure) a year job as a 'consultant'? Nope: your reward is that they don't gang up on you on their forum. It is said that everyone has a price. Maybe so, but my price is far more than any of those legends-in-their-own-minds will ever afford.

-- Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:01 am --



Personally, I find Joy Division to be quite dark. But it's a subtle sort of dark, more of a personal resonance (for want of a better way to describe it). The music of the early Goth or Goth-ish bands is vastly different from the second or third generation Dark and Gloomy Wall of Sound type bands. Or to put it another way, think of Faith and the Muse vs. 13 Candles. Joy Division and their kin is more of an introverted dark than an extroverted dark. And keep in mind that not every song by a band will sound the same. Some may be lighter or darker. To get a true "feel" for a band, I'd listen to several complete albums. Everyone doesn't have to like or relate to all Goth bands. I do think it's useful, though, to know who was influential in the evolution of the music.

Problem there, beach town. Shit music stores, plus I'm broke, when I tried to get some more Joy Division mp3 Rocket just didn't have much, I think it was 7 songs at most compared to the hundreds for any other artist, maybe I'll double check utorrent and Vuze...

Yes I very much agree it's useful to know who was infuential in the evolution of the music. Like us in Australia get taught about settlement etc. though it really isn't a part of our lives now, just like Aboriginal rights is no longer seen as a big problem, it used to be one, so we get taught it.

Not an extremely awesome analogy but it sorta helps

Pirate bay