I see your point DarklyInclined, conformance within a subculture - peer pressure, especially strong among teens (from what I can remember *cough*). I do think that goth - because it has fanned out so much - has got beyond simple categorization (elder goths moaning, teens claiming what goth is or not, the BSDM & PVC mob and cyber danglies) and is an umbrella for all kinds of things (hence centurions comments on 'dark culture').

Counter-culture? Maybe. It has not got the visible critical mass of other cc's like the hippies (hippy values are perceived as self evident by the public at large - goths get misunderstood) but its developing or has developed a wide variety of cultural artifacts (music, books etc.) but there is no common thread that I see of a specific way to live ('core values') like the other counter-cultures. Goths can be anything and anybody. The only commonality seems to be (me being facetious) wearing black.

Its rather nice that you don't agree with me. I like discussions, really hate shouty arguments.

Thoughts?

-LS

I see what you're saying, hun, and completely agree - in fact, you've stated, very succinctly, a point I was trying to get across on annwn's thread on the subject of the future of the Goth movement/subculture/counterculture/aw, hell, CULTURE - it needs cohesion, focus, direction. But I truly believe that with that cohesion, it could actually be a valid counter-cultural monster.

And please, don't be afraid to call me Minnie!

xx

Dear Minnie,
Your comment about a "counter-cultural monster" sent shivers down my spine, I imagine such things trample people in the dust in the name of belonging. I'm the type of person who would join such a group just so I could dissent from it, contrary bugger that I am.

It also got me thinking about the development of cultures and how the various outlier elements feed back into the whole (and vise-versa). I need to go read up on cultural development and a lot more history. Meanwhile, I would conjecture that with the rise of the new puritanism (Australia seems to be leading the way[1]) it would distance goths even more from the mainstream and provide focus as an "oppressed group". Then again I might be talking a load of old tosh.

-LS

[1] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/26/aussie_filter_paranoia/

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2010/s2905520.htm?site=centralcoast

http://blogs.news.com.au/news/splat/index.php/news/comments/drink_walking_could_soon_be_a_crime

Hmmm.... You must excuse my over-enthusiasm and flair for the melodramatic. I suppose, taken the wrong way, what I said - although meant positively - can be read negatively. I only meant it in a really good way...

Actually, I'm much the same! The trouble is, there are places we all call "home"... And for me, goth/gothic culture is that home. So, while at times I may be a little perverse, overall it doesn't last long. Would I be right in thinking that's also reasonably true of you?

That's what I like to do - get people thinking about things. And, what you're saying sounds bloody interesting; I will be really interested in the conclusions you reach.

I don't think you are. I think this is a superb observation, and it may be that with the resurgence of overbearing authority, it IS the perfect breeding ground for growth in the goth/gothic counterculture.

Dear Minnie,
The "monster" had me thinking about negative connotations, rather than positive (or perhaps monster as in the "unwieldy" variety). No need for an oops, you are far too polite, a characteristic I often lack as I rush headlong into a miasma of hurried thought, often without the brakes on.

I do have my work cut out for me but at least I can jump off from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociocultural_evolution and go find some real books (Bristol is a university town so I should have no problem). I would find it interesting anyway as the UK is undergoing a cultural change which will not be fully felt until the second generation of the most recent immigrants matures. I expect to produce no predictions but maybe discern some patterns.

Yes, I do regard goth as a "home". It allows ridicule but very little in the way of outright condemnation I have found so far. The variety of creative modes and tolerance allows me the freedom to express myself, rather than to conform to a preset list of acceptable norms. I guess that is why goth gets a bad rap for "bad music" as it lacks context outside the subculture.

Yours sincerely,
LS

That's not too far off how I dance actually. Bit more anger and speed and it'd be a reasonable match.

Actually there are many bands out there that are far closer to "trad-goth" than the electro cyber danceola that has saturated the clubs. That's the whole point I was making in my original post: most people only seem to know what's played in the clubs, and as Wolfmammy pointed out, relatively few people seem to dig and discover anymore. The newer Goth bands are the ones really keeping the music alive, not the remixed thumpola that masquerades as "goth music".
I agree about the undue focus on Nightclubs. As I commented in a newspaper interview back in 2004, the Goth subculture is independent of the club scene. If every club vanished, you would still have a subculture. This would probably be a good thing, because most people seem to take their musical cue strictly from the clubs.

Interesting topic! Thanks, lostindreaming...
I must say, I'm quite pleased that we (divine.love.mission) got a mention here at the goth.net forum! Much appreciated... I'm Scott, keyboard player in divine.love.mission. Not sure what goth subset we might fit in, but I know our influences are pretty varied, and we love bringing all the ingredients to the recipe. Try our latest tasty treats, "Incinerate (Summer Comes)" and "Ride" at our MySpace: www.myspace.com/divinelovemission. All goth subsets welcome to drop by! Leave us a note!

Love,
Scott
divine.love.mission

Your 1998 CD was definitely great. In addition to spinning "Bleach Away the Night" when I DJ'd at the Mental Ward; I also took your CD in for the DJ's to play when I was a financial sponsor for Joseph's night in Hollywood a few years before that. I forgot the name of that particular event, he had so many of them over the years. I finally cajoled them into playing either "Bleach..." or "Adventure in Morality", another one of my favorites, or maybe even both, it was a long time ago. Glad to see DLM is back.

As a teen myself, and being best friends with two other teenage goths, I personally consider people like that to be posers. You can't run around claiming that you're goth, but not even try to listen to the Cure or Bauhaus or Alien Sex Fiend.

I honestly could consider these people to be poseurs. No one said that you have to like The Cure or Bauhaus or Alien Sex Fiend (blasphemy in Gothdom to say this? Probably), but dammit, if you're going to be a part of the culture, you have to at least educate yourself about the history of it and be familiar with the bands who pretty much started the subculture. Not listening to those bands, even just Bela Lugosi's Dead, would be like going to France and declaring you're French, but not knowing anything about the history or the language.

Call me a blasphemer, if you will.

What is it about this subculture that it tries so hard to make bands which are not, were not, and never will be, actually goth bands, into goth bands?

While I'm not picking on you personally, Briseis, I've heard "if you're going to be a part of the culture, you have to at least educate yourself about the history of it" so many times immediately before the person saying it then starts to claim The Cure are goth.

They are as goth as Siouxsie and the Banshees. Yes, they have an undeniable influence on the sound and look of other bands which firmly ARE a part of the subculture, but the influence works both ways. Their "goth" phase, if indeed it ever actually existed, was only brief; for the most part, though, they were just a band that evolved out of punk and went through the same bleak, brittle sound that a lot of bands went through in the wake of punk. For some reason, though, like Joy Division, they've been dragged by subcultural "experts" into the fold as if they always truly were a part of the scene, regardless of what Robert Smith himself says; those same experts then nod sagely and say "Denial - the mark of a true classic goth band".

The Cure are a goth band in exactly the same way that the Beatles are a mod band, Iggy Pop a punk rocker and David Bowie a New Romantic (and, for LS, Bob Dylan a hippy).

Question the history you're fed, for god's sake!

But...they are. At least most Punks credit Iggy(I hate him) as the grandfather of punk. Bob Dylan wrote hippie music...etc.

Not learning about something one claims to be a part of is like trying to be an archer knowing nothing about handling a bow and arrow.

Being the "grandfather of punk" doesn't make him a punk. Did he have spikey hair? Did he wear bondage strides? No. He was an influence on the scene (hence, the "grandfather" of punk). Bob Dylan wrote music and lyrics which influenced hippy bands, but himself never was, and never had, or wanted, anything to do with it - he famously turned down Woodstock for that reason.

And, using your archer analogy, perhaps sometimes you should listen to someone who was around to watch the bows being made, instead of someone who's reporting on an archery tournament thirty years after it actually happened.