As someone who lives in a town that has no active Goth subculture, and was not interested in Goth when I lived in Toronto which HAS a huge Goth presence, i have a question or two:

Are the various 'sub-species' of goth still in evidence? The Deathrocker, the Trad, the Cyberpunk, etc.

Or, over the years, have some of the past expressions of the subculture simply fallen by the wayside and exist only as cultural history rather than lived experience?

Also, do young, baby-battish goths even THINK in these terms any more, is is there a more generic goth 'look' they adopt without trying to be one 'school' or another?

-- Wed May 12, 2010 8:56 pm --

You might be wondering what set me thinking along these lines...

I was reading a few articles on goth music and it occurred to me that fledgling goths in their teens probably don't--maybe even WON'T--listen to 80's classic goth music like the Cure, Alien Sex Fiend and Bauhaus. Their version of 'Ur-goth' music is likely to be My Dying Bride or Type O Negative instead.

So, if they are completely divorced from original goth music to the extent of neither knowing nor caring about it, is that a problem?

-- Wed May 12, 2010 9:00 pm --

And furthermore, is that even important nowadays?

From my experience, in Ireland Deathrock has been adopted as a sort of "Trad-lite/Genric-casual" unless some BIG Trad event is on (like when Bauhaus played here). Cyberpunk is literary :p CyberGOTH however is reasonably a big style, with varying degrees of adoption. It seems to be the go-to for a lot of the younger ones and most of the forigners who visit are Cybers. The Romanti-/Victorian-goth style is confined to maybe a half dozen girls and Daniel (who LIVES the style and blends modern/steampunk elements very well when it's relevant).

There's also a large portion of "it's black so it's goth" types who just like the music and don't want to stand out and random metalheads.

Musically The Cure are popular as ever (probably because they managed to be dark AND accessible, not something most have done), Bauhaus are the band you name if you want to proove your Goth cred, Alien Sex Fiend get some playtime (who I heard one song from and promptly dismissed as "too damn long to bother with") but it's been heavily EBM slanted from when I started going there until I just didn't bother anymore. I don't think, being honest about it, people really think in terms of "ur-Goth" in Dublin. It either fits the mood or it doesn't, fun to dance to or not.

The main problem with judging what the teens are listening to is... they can't come to the pub and tell us. The online option leads us to places like here or places like... Vampirefreaks. So yeah.....

Is it a problem? Only if you hate change. Is it important? Meh, if the subculture wants to keep waving the individuality banner it's going to have to accept that someday the music it started with just won't resonate with new people so often and that not liking Bauhaus is not an instant Goth-card revocation.

Very, VERY well said, Arquinsiel!

Pretty much my position on this too.

Coming initially, as i did, from a combination classical and metal direction, it's sometimes been difficult getting into the originals for me, although i have to say, I really like many of them, like Joy Division and the Cure.

That's why I find it so easy to vault over to Goth/Doom metal on the one hand and Dark Wave/Ethereal Wave on the other, cutting out most of the obviously post-punk aspects of it.

-- Wed May 12, 2010 9:29 pm --




Damn! Really, the above words need to be TATTOOED on the foreheads of all those professional poser-hunters-general one encounters so often in the sub-culture!

I find balancing between the past and embracing the present as well works for me. Personally I mostly enjoy female fronted Goth bands, and really in the 80s there weren't many choices. Those that were there, I do enjoy, but I also enjoy newer bands such as Ego Likeness, Flowing Tears, along with others. There is nothing but love from me for the roots of the Goth culture even though I don't necessarily let it dictate who I am, since I am my own person and actually enjoy the fruits that were originally planted back in the 70s and 80s.

Personally I think variety helps strengthen goth culture, not diminish it. No doubt I'm a hybrid of sorts, and my guess is that most are as well.

I guess it depends on where you are. Different fashions are considerably more popular with what genre of goth/schwarze szene music they listen to.

For example, in Germany, if you go to a Combichrist/Suicide Commando show, the cybergoth is likely to be out in full force.
Go to something like Rosa Crvx, Dark Sanctuary, or Goethes Erben, and you'll likely be fine-dining with Victorians, vampires, and ubers in all their frill and lace.
A gig of Tragic Black or Cinema Strange will deinitely bring out the death rockers in mohawks and fishnets.
Dark ambient/industrial/noise gigs generally attract the rivet head.
Trad goths in long hair and white makeup??? They will likely be going to see Fields of the Nephilim or Nosferatu.
Neofolk/martial industrial gigs will attract the gothly-inclined skinhead fashion.
Corvus Corax and In Extremo will bring in the fabled medieval goths!!
Black metal/gothic metal shows will be populated with the long hair/band tee metalhead crowd.
Visual kei/anime-bands will be chock full of j-goth/lolita types.
And finally a band as popular as Lacrimosa might bring in everybody!!

Ironically, with all these little "cliques", matching fashion with music tastes, these bands still all play the same events!!
That can only be a good thing, and acts to break down the wall.

Everyone will always have their tastes and favorites, but at least there's the connection.
I'm very glad for the schwarze szene, and all of it's diversity.

Well, I guess when it comes to death rock, I really favor the stuff that sounds more close to traditional gothic music than punk.

Personally, my taste for death rock leans more towards the kind of stuff they play on http://www.cathedral13.com/ (a kickass radio station!!)

Therefore, Cinema Strange, Virgin Prunes, Christian Death, the Danse Society, Suspiria/Intra-Venus, and Mephisto Walz would be much closer to where I stand in the death rock field as opposed to, say, the Misfits.

Also, I guess as a "goth fashion subgroup", I'm a hybrid really. I tend towards the darker, more atmospheric genres, and not so much EBM, so I guess I'd be more of an "uber" than anything, and a damn cheesy one at that

I find that the different branches of the Goth subculture exist in harmony with each other and they strengthen the sub-culture instead of watering it down I myself am what I consider a hybrid goth

I think it depends on where you go as well. I know there are goths in my area, I just never see them because I barely stray from my dwelling and I've never gone to any of the clubs in my area (that and people don't come out much unless the occassion calls for it, but we have a lot of events that bring an assortment of people around), but since the biggest club is an industrial club, that will probably tell you that there are rivetheads and cybergoths there.

Every once in awhile I'll see some tradgoths or some gothic lolitas around in public, like at the mall or the grocery store (though with the latter, they might be more into the lolita subculture rather than being a goth who dresses in the goth-loli fashion). The biggest turn out of romantic, faery, and medieval goths are at the RenFaire, and I have a feeling that I'll be seeing some Victorian and Steampunk goths at the Steam Expo in a two weeks.

In my area, though, I think it's the rivethead and cybergoth scenes that are big, since Detroit is home to a lot of electronic-based music (even though I don't like techno).

I might be an oddity but I'm a nerd-goth hybrid! I don't have much of a fashion sense, money to pay for it, or the skills to craft goodies myself so my wardrobe consists of black jeans and black shirts. It has for years. I don't know what look that would qualify as but to be honest it doesn't matter to me.

As far as music goes, I was listening to the Cure before I even knew what goth really was. Only upon looking for similar bands I discovered goth and how much I liked it. As a child my parents would "tease" with a few bands like the Clash, Cure, and David Bowie. The radio would play a few that I'd love, but it was only a few years ago that I rediscovered them. Y'know that feeling you get when you hear a great song from your childhood?!

Aside from stuff I'd expect any goth to listen to, I'd grown up on hard rock, heavy metal, and grunge. Early in my high school years I branched off into death metal. And yes, My Dying Bride was and still is one of my favorites.

...and start listening to Bob Dylan!

Didn't we already discuss this in the "goth without the music" thread?

To answer your question regarding the existence of various sub-species of goth, the answer is yes, they do exist. Toronto is slowly getting an increase in deathrockers, although goth is still primarily PVC and EBM here. I see Trads come out when Bauhaus or SoM show up. Once in a while I'll see Emilie-Autumish-looking teens... not even sure what the term for that is, but I suppose everything has a place under the Goth umbrella.

You people are trying to give me nightmares! Sgath with her disappearing tattoo ink and you two with the 'growing out of it' & 'bob dylan'.

I know one who turned hippy, and its a tendency noted in others who have been goth for a while. Its something you have to be aware of and guard against. Like a Sith Lord suddenly discovering that the joys of gardening outweigh genocide.

-LS

Glad I'm not the only one to have nightmares about Bob Dylan (the words "vastly" and "overrated" express my feelings about him )

-- Thu May 13, 2010 8:54 pm --


Unless of course the genocide is against slugs and aphids... then I quite understand the change

My ex-step-daughter used to douse slugs in salt. I thought that was cruel. A beer trap on the other hand lets them go out in a happy mood (yes, I am that soft in the head).

-LS