I'm a member of a few forums, and in one of them--a largely political and mostly [but hardly exclusively] conservative one that I've been on for many years--I started a thread to discuss the Goth sub-culture.

Many of these people are as good, intelligent, informed and solid a group of people you can find on the internet [both the conservatives and even a few of the libs, amazingly enough! ], and I would have NO problem with trusting my very life to a number of them, but for most the Goth subculture isn't even on their radar, so I decided to broach the subject with them in a sympathetic way.

The responses were varied: some were sarcastic and mocking, some were cautiously sympathetic, most expressed greater curiosity.

One of the most challenging and interesting responses was the following:

Why - and I ask this as a friend - why, would you need a prepackaged identity?

You want to dress in black and be hangdog-romantic...if that's what you are, go with it.

But these Goth, or Juggalo, or punk, or gangsta, identities...those are for confused kids, and adopting them PREVENTS individuality or development of a deep individual identity.


This is an interesting response, and I think I dealt with it adequately.

How have some of you dealt with discussions Goth from people, otherwise friends, who have no understanding of it?

Eh, those two would be the easier questions to answer imho.

The short and quick answer would be: It's not a pre-packaged identity, that's whythere are so many "types" of goths, and despite there being so many "types," many people wouldn't be able to simply pick one of those names and accurately say "that's what I am" because of the diversity in most peoples' music tastes, fashion tastes, and so on. How many people have you seen where, they go to describe their fashion & musical tastes by listing 2, 3, or even 4 different "goth-type" names? That doesn't happen from people surfing click [I hate to use the word click in this context but I don't know what other word to use here] names to pick one that looks cool so they can emulate it, that happens from people trying [and failing] to find a way to describe a mess of people who have similar interests, coming together from a crazy amount of different backgrounds, interests, and perspectives.

Those would have been very valid points for me to bring up, sgath, I wish I'd thought of them.

Here was my response to that challenge:

There's may be something to what you say, and OBVIOUSLY any motivation of group identity is very far from my intention here.



I'm, by nature, not a joiner of ANY kind--I'm a little too anarchic and cynical for that sort of thing. I'm temperamentally incapable of going full-bore, peddle-to-the-metal goth, or anything else, for that matter.



But I DO like a lot of the 'aesthetic' of this sub-culture: the music, the literature, the 'look', the sensibility. I find something very sympathetic about this attempt at otherworldliness and nostalgia.



They also seem to be more literate and intelligent overall than any other subculture.

[quote="annwn"Why - and I ask this as a friend - why, would you need a prepackaged identity?

You want to dress in black and be hangdog-romantic...if that's what you are, go with it.

But these Goth, or Juggalo, or punk, or gangsta, identities...those are for confused kids, and adopting them PREVENTS individuality or development of a deep individual identity.[/quote]

For us elder-Goths, we didn't "adopt" the style we have. The 80's was a time of expression, and we expressed ourselves through our style...our clothes, our hair, or makeup. The music of the time was also an avenue of expression, and we were drawn or related to music that. For me, I was naturally drawn to darker things in art...classic monster stories, Poe's writings, dark paintings, etc. I also found myself drawn to the music...Bauhaus, Joy Division, the Cure, Psychedelic Furs, Mission, Siouxsie, Depeche Mode, etc. Wearing dark colors, and lots of black, was part of my way of expressing who I was, and I hung around with people of the same interests, who, by the by, had a similar style, though we all were self-expressive with it. Sure, it was the same palette, but we didn't wear it the same way. I was more into the romantic style...ruffles, lace, etc. My good friend was more into a vintage look. My makeup was always with the dark eyes, dark polish, etc...just went with the style. It wasn't until later that there was a "label" put on it.

Truthfully, I really miss those times! My step-daughter was telling me the other day that her teacher had made a comment about when the current generation would come up with their own style. Other decades had their unique style, but this generation doesn't seem to...rather, they adopt styles from past generations. This could be where the confused kids comment came to play.

One of the funniest moments in this thread came when a senior member of this forum I mentioned above took one of the internet 'Are You a Goth' quizzes I posted.

He's a hard-ass, former Special Forces officer who fought in many of the nation's wars over the past 30 years, and who, after his career, took up posts in diplomatic security in some of the most dangerous locations on earth, and is just about as nice a guy as you'd ever want to meet, as well as being just about BRILLIANT intellectually. But the LAST person in the world you'd think to call 'Goth'.

He scored 95% 'True Goth' on one of the tests.

His reply: 'Something is not right with your test!'

Which proves a point I never tire of making: that a lot of people who share a great many attitudes and characteristics usually associated with 'Goth' would shrink at the actual identification with that term.

An awful lot of people are walking around who are much 'gothier' than they suspect themselves to be.

For us elder-Goths, we didn't "adopt" the style we have. The 80's was a time of expression, and we expressed ourselves through our style...our clothes, our hair, or makeup. The music of the time was also an avenue of expression, and we were drawn or related to music that. It wasn't until later that there was a "label" put on it.

Truthfully, I really miss those times! My step-daughter was telling me the other day that her teacher had made a comment about when the current generation would come up with their own style. Other decades had their unique style, but this generation doesn't seem to...rather, they adopt styles from past generations. This could be where the confused kids comment came to play.[/quote]


My boyfriend (can you call a 42 year old man a boyfriend?) says he misses the 80's too- and hates all the 'subtypes' of Goths- he was a rocker, punk-Goth hybrid- as were all his freinds. He bemoans the fact that it was all about self expression and now it's about fitting a stereotype! He remembers when he had to make his own studded belts and fishnet tops!

Also- I have often wondered about the lack of origionality in today's 'youth'- the most origional may be 'scene kids' - but that too is just a re-hash of stuff gone before!

I often get comments about being too old to define myself by a scene type- that it's for teenagers- whilst I agree somewhat I also bristle when freinds who 'used to be Goth' say that have 'Grown-up' which seems to be to be a kind of dig at me for being immature or something!. I go in and out of attaching the Goth tag to myself as I hate punk & post punk and I don't really love medieval or Victorian fashions either. My style has changed and the things I like have ventured beyond those of Goth and i feel comfortable rejecting things other Goths love e.g. Tim Burton (I loathe his work)- I tend to describe myself asof a darkly romantic persuasion. That seems to be understood by non-Gothy types.

On a related note- do any of you have freinds who are so obviosly drawn to Gothic things but don't have the confidence or realistation to go with it?????

I've had people say things about me "putting a label on myself", which, is rather silly. What I tell them, basically, is...

No, Goth is not a "label". I'm Goth, because I am a part of the subculture. A subculture that is, first and foremost, musically based, followed by an aesthetic. If it were a label, it'd be the only thing to define me, but it's not. I wouldn't LET it be the way I'm defined, actually.

I'm also known for being smart (in fact, probably too smart for my own good ), known for being a Metalhead as well (So Ner ), known for being short (5'5", pretty short compared to everyone else around here!), known for spending too much time online, and much more.

Technically, some of these things define me more than "Goth" does, because even when dressed "normal", and without people looking at my playlist, they may not know that I'm Goth, or big into the Black Metal scene, but they'd know about my intelligence from briefly talking to me, they'd be able to see my height, and if they were talking to me online, they'd probably figure out I spend alot of time at the computer.

So assuming that I'm "labelling" myself seems a bit silly, because to define myself would take ALOT more than one word.

Hrm, by typing this out, I think the best summary is that, if you remind people that they wouldn't be able to tell if you were Goth or not without the fashion, or without knowing the music you're listening to, you can basically prove to them that it can't be THAT defining.

Tishka, I feel the exact same way when someone tells me they 'grew out of' being Goth. I told one person that if they grew out of it then they were a poseur.

Annwn, your descriptions of reactions are typical of people ignorant of the sub-culture. They know nothing about it, nor do they care so why bother with them?

ETA~ About labeling....I always tell people that I'd rather label myself than have a million others do it for me. Seems to leave them dumbfounded for some reason.

I'm one of those people that like stirring the pot--as you may have noticed.

Seriously, though, once you get people looking into it more deeply, many of them change their attitudes. One way of doing so is through introducing new music to them. I wowed a number of them by playing Faith and the Muse and Black Tape for a Blue Girl or Filelds of the Nephilim for them by posting YouTube videos--they simply couldn't BELIEVE that the music was so beautiful and powerful, and why hadn't they heard it before, etc.

Some people will be receptive to it, but I don't push if people aren't curious. One of my friends that I miss a lot used to listen to music with me, read dark literature & watch twisted/scary/morbid movies with me(I watched that movie about Jeffrey Dahmer with her, pointing out what was real & what they got wrong, lol). She would've made a great Goth if her boyfriend hadn't intervened! She was always curious about the things I was interested in and a lot of it meshed with things she was interested in.

I believe this has more to do with the personality of the indivdual rather than labels/subcultures themselves. Some people do take goth, do whatever they can to fit into it, use it as guide to how they should live and sit their comfortabley in their own little world, never having to think for themselves.

Others, find that goth matches their preferences and use it merely as a way of exploring those preferences and finding others who share them. They don't judge themselves in accordance with the subculture, they judge the subculture in accordance with themselves.



That's why I typically avoid talking about the subculture with people who know little about it. All it will due is cause a lot of confusion. If they really are curious I can tell them all about it, but I won't make the effort to teach them about a subculture that they aren't going to really care about beyond correcting some basic misinformation.

Yeah, the last thing we want is to become 'Gothic Witnesses' getting doors slammed in our faces when we try to 'convert' people.....or do we???

Oh, I quite fancy going door to door in a dark robe, pentagram pendant and blood filled goblet.

-LS

That's what I thought.

Somehow I kept thinking of this when I read that.