Rather than give a long anecdote that I conveniently don't have, why do you suppose some individuals who portray themselves as "posers" would rather stay in that phase or just stop dressing/acting ridicuously altogether rather than at least upgrading to babybat (if some of you think there is a difference at all), and then becoming a more acceptable member in the goth subculture?

Is there a deeper pyschological development involved in being a poser involving one's inflated ego (like, "I either want to be exactly as I am now or none of it at all!") or do they sincerely have no interest other than being an attention whore for a short time span until their attention lust is met?

Interested in hearing what ya'll have to say on this.

Can I suggest a different model than the one of 'True Goth' and 'Poser Goth'? Because I've never really found these two categories helpful or exhaustive. There's a continuum involved here, I believe.

For example:

Here I am, sitting at my computer, listening to 'Dawnrazor' by 'Fields of the Nephilim', three pictures by Caspar David Friedrich on the wall [three of his 'gothiest'], and three books on Kabbalah and at least six on Celtic and Arthurian mythology piled on the right side of my desk. Pretty 'non-poser' so far, huh?

However...I'm wearing a bright red 'Barbarian' rugby shirt and light green zip-off leg cargo pants! Not at all goth!

Plus, i hate dance/music clubs, goth or otherwise, preferring cozy traditional pubs instead.

So what AM I? True Goth or Poser? What category do I fit into?

Uhm, wow, your outfit is completely irrelevant as to whether you're a Goth or not. Goth is a musically-based subculture first and foremost. Doesn't mean you have to like clubs.

The idea is, a "poser" DRESSES the part, but doesn't know anything about it. A "Poser" would dress Goth, try to be such, yet listen to, for example, Slipknot. They only take it on for the aesthetics, not for the subculture.

Anyways, to address Carpi's original question... I've found that most of the people who are, essentially, the "posers" I described above, do such for attention. They want the fashion factor to either shock, or to fit in with a certain "outcast" group. And I find that the ones who won't evolve musically, or just quit, because they like the image, but would rather listen to angsty nu-metal to try and be "bad-ass".

I don't think it's a psychological issue other than the cliche teenager, really. Teenagers always want to find their place, whether it's an angsty "goth", or a popular cheerleader. And well, they usually grow out of it all, some sooner than others. As far as your idea of "I either want to be exactly as I am now or none of it at all!", well, thats probably something to do with them trying to be "individual" (despite how contradictory it really is). They're trying to be different, and of course they don't usually want anyone to change them. It's really just, pretty typical teenage attitude, nothing more.

@annwn: I'm abidding more to the image of a person who dresses "goth" but doesn't do anything related to the subculture at heart, but still calls themselves "goth", or maybe in this case, "goff". (that's why I didn't necessarily say "true" or "real" goth, since a) I think most of us of on G.net don't wear all black all the time and b) to any elitist if you listen to goth bands and follow goth aesthetics but you don't do something that they expect of you, then you'll never be a "true goth" in their eyes, which is fairly stupid. So I like to throw that out ).

If we have to go into a cliche stereotype of the gothic poseur - well, we've discussed that enough.

@Arch: That's one obvious reason that I came up with. But another one I've been thinking about is the actual effort you have to put into being a goth. A lot of people obviously think that all there is to being goth is just act moopy and dress in black, but subcultures have extensive history, facts, and events behind them. I still research stuff on the subculture, being part of it for four years now. So sometimes I wonder if it could also be the amount of learning you have to do that turns some folks off from goth altogether rather than going in deeper.

That, or similiar to what you said, some people find out that you aren't a special little flower in a subculture afterall.

For me, personally, Goth is not just something that I do, but something that I have become- something I am. It is like religion. It is a part of you and it shows in some way or another- whether you want it to or not. I research it, and spend much of my time contemplating it while listening to the music…always to gain a higher understanding of not just the culture, but of myself. I am not just Goth, I live Goth. The music, the aesthetic , the art, etc… because it is what I love- it is a passion.

I think posers tend to lack any real passion for the subculture. They are ‘into it’ for a few laughs, some shocked faces, and wanting sprout of rebel bullshit to show their unique individuality, when in reality they just have no idea who they really are and want to take that out on everyone who realizes it. What better why to hide your insecurities than under a mask of darkness? It does not mean they want to embrace it more than hide behind it for a while- though some do end up embracing it and actually moving up in the subculture.

Therefore, I think, that if there is an underlying psychological reason (other than ignorance- which will always be mixed in anyway) a person chooses to stay a poser, it would be their feelings of inadequacy and not quite knowing where they wish to fit in or how exactly they wish society to view them so they explore options (combined with the above mentioned ignorance)- and let us face it Goth has a huge impact on the psyche if you let it- which can cause people to become enthralled by the IDEA of media Goth, instead of delving deeper to discover the truth and learn EXACTLY what Goth is, by their own hard research.

And those that do know the truth- maybe it is just pride. Stupid, I know, but it can cause people to do stupid shit. I know I went through that, it was my major hurtle from poser Goth to actual Goth. I had called myself Goth for so long that when I finally did learn the truth of it I had considered letting my pride get in the way of knowledge and I had a choice. Remain a poser and feel inadequate and missing, or step it up admit your folly and move forward. I chose to move forward and I never regretted it. Others do not.

Of course there could be many many many more reasons a person would choose to stay Poser, but those are a few of my ideas.

I don't think anyone just 'settles' for being a poser. Some kids, when they hit adolescence, go through what my family used to call 'the black phase'. You go through a couple years of being kinda mopey, gangly & awkward while wearing black and some think this is a child being 'goth'. Just because someone wears black doesn't mean they're Goth. A lot of people wrongly label themselves or get labeled simply because the world at large just doesn't truly know about the subculture.

Most kids do grow out of their 'black phase', eventually. It doesn't make them a poser for deciding that dressing black is no longer for them.

I love it to see discussions on this subject, it's truly interesting to see how each person feels about the subculture and who would consider whom as goth. I guess this is the sort of matter springing out of the fact that the subculture was given a name related to a word which changed its meaning through time. I mean, as annwn pointed out in some other thread with a picture goth was originally bound with the saxons then it turned into a word adressing a specific sort of architecture changing into the adjective "gothic" which was used later on to indicate a specific kind of litterature. I see that the change in the word's meaning brought a bit of confusion about the subculture itself after it was born from the first groups which were called "goth" by critics. That's exactly why I love it to read each and every of this discussions, each of us has a different perspective and feeling when it comes to the word goth although it's clear enough that "goth" meaning "a member of the goth subculture" has a very specific meaning even after a couple of decades from when it was first used as such, as ArcAngel pointed out, this meaning cannot be separated from music. Now, this is exactly when the whole discussion gets started... I see the point of calling someone "poser" if they try to show something they are not, like they say they love a certain kind of music when actually they don't. As broken told me at the very beginning when I entered g.net, it's not up to the individual to decide if what they are listening to is goth or not, and a reference to if the group itself is to be considered goth or not can be easily googled. Yet there is something not very clear to me... I mean, let's take someone who doesn't even know of the existance of the subculture, let's say this person doesn't care about what music he/she listens to, but they dress in a way that can be easily mistaken for a goth and reads gothic litterature and shares the subculture's values, this is completely possible because some people are not so much into music itself. So, what will we do with this person? Are we casting him/her away as a poser because they don't know about the subculture even though they don't mean to harm anyone and they don't call themselves goth? I liked it a lot in another thread when someone came out with the word "gothic" and I guess that, given the fact that I consider each and every word in the vocabulary as having it's own specific meaning, it wouldn't be that wrong to add a single morpheme to respect the sensibility of an individual who is definitely respectful of other people and has no intention in offending anyone. Moreover, thinking of Wolfie who once said that "gothic" is an adjective refering to what goths like, I'd bet some goths could even like someone with such a good attitude and being respectful in his words choise. So, to finally get to the point, couldn't we say that between goth and poser there might be little nouances having no name at all?

I think its high time this so called "poser" start to respect the Subculture because they are just reining it for the people that are in it for the good it holds,Goth is a Subcultre which needs to be seen and respected like any other culture in this world because it holds true meanings to those who are in need and still hold to its value,its high time people stop seeing it as a so called "phase" i mean what do you even mean when you refer it to as phase,no wonder why Elder Goth feel that the Subculture has lost its value because many are making a mockery of it , i mean be who you are you dont have to shock people with all sorts of acts and things just for people to view you as a Goth,you are not in it for the people you are in it for you after all its your life and you dont want to look back and say what was i thinking and so forth.I think any body who is in the Goth Subculture will truly discribe it as being somethig beautifull and cherish able,forget what society label it or call it,they dont know any thing about it thats why it appears to them as something wrong, you know the true meaning of it thats why you are in it and thats why we have Elder Goth to this day....

The whole attention seeking thing is quite a confusing one,why would they seek attention just for being so called part of the culture,dont they know society regard us devious characters,now who in their right might wants to approach a devious character just think about that, so why would "posers" look for attention,its most of them in the end who dont get attention that tend to gain anger and then get violent,beacuse they didnt get why they thought they will get and thats beacuse they where not true to themselves....

I think there's a lot to this, especially the bit about people getting wrongly labeled just because they're being mopey and wearing black. There is a lot of ignorance about the Goth subculture. I know I've been labeled 'Goth' a few times in my life due to the way I dressed. I shrugged it off, coming to the conclusion that I wasn't really sure what a Goth was and if I wasn't sure what a Goth was, I had no business calling myself it.

Eventually, though, I came to the conclusion that if people were going to keep confusing me with a Goth I'd better get off my ass and figure out what people were confusing me with, and so I started the internet research that eventually led me here. Now I've learned a bit more about the subculture and where it actually comes from, and I've even spent time learning about and listening to the music, and yeah, I like some of it, but it's not my favorite music, and I've never actually been part of the scene. Out of respect for those who have, I'm not going to call myself 'Goth' - I just don't feel like I have the right - but I am probably going to continue to dress in a manner that will sometimes get me confused with a Goth because I am still drawn to that way of dress. Perhaps in the mind of some this may qualify me as being a poser, since I'm knowingly dressing in a way that might get me tagged as Goth and I am not Goth, but in my case being identified as 'Goth' is not the intent, it's a side effect of dressing how I want to dress.

With all this in mind, I can kind of understand the perspective of someone who dresses that way, gets called a Goth a lot because they are dressing that way, and just comes to the conclusion, 'Well, everyone is calling me Goth so that must be what I am,' instead of my own conclusion of, 'Hmm, not sure what a Goth is, I'd better not use the term.' Spend enough time living under a certain label, and it can be hard to give it up. That label, even if it's incorrectly applied, becomes a part of their self-identity. Should this theoretical person eventually discover what a real Goth is, the idea that they are not what they thought they were can be disorienting, confusing, frustrating - maybe even alarming and frightening. One option is to retreat into a shell of denial. "No, I really am a Goth so what I listen to must be Goth music." I am not saying that this is a good response, but I think it's an understandable response. They are not intentionally 'settling' for being posers, they are remaining posers because they've gotten themselves so wrapped up in a word that they don't want to let it go, no matter how incorrect that word might be.

Most of what I had to say applies to people who don't grow out of their 'black phase', although it might work for those who are still in it. It was mostly the talk about getting wrongly labeled because someone is wearing black and being mopey that got me thinking about it, since I've been in that category myself.

Edited to add: Gawd, sorry I was so spammy. I like words.

I never considered that "posers" crave attention. I truly believe they crave acceptance.
The "poser" problem is so different from place to place, and from different angles, that it will take forever to sort it out.
Some goths are so wrapped is analyzing goth culture, that they forget to just be goth.

And all people are free to listened whatever they want and dress how they want. Nobody holds monopole over the labels.

I do agree with you Henry's_twisted_dreams on the issue that some Goth are so wrapped up analyzing the culture that they dont know anymore how to be just goth or just be them..Its a hard one but i thing its more on the wanting to get the facts right of what the culture is about and sense we constantly have to answer various questions about the culture from society and i think they feel like they dont want to be wrong and look like they dont know anything about the culture they are part of..

Goth for me is a way of looking at the world. I can just sit in the ruins of an old castle, light rain falling, wrapped in waterproofs and just think, let my mind wander, alone. I have always done that kind of thing, it appeals to me.

I'm sure that for some the poser is just that, a kid in the process of growing up. For others, I think they may identify as Goth, have the mindset, but not be interested in the baggage of a pre-existing subculture. When you are young you want to make your own way, forge a new path. Stuff that already exists is by definition, uncool.

-LS

Jesus Christ, Lentalis, spot on AGAIN!!!

I'm going to have to start stealing your best lines!

Some of the posts here make valid points, but for me this above pretty much sums up what I have seen over the years. People I consider to be a "poser" are people who want the benefits of being associated with a group, but rally have no interest beyond the superficial, so they make no effort. They then try to hide their ignorance by claiming to be hardcore or long-time members. They are usually very confrontational and aggressive. Fortunately, most of them are gone within a few years.
This was sort of verified, for me at least, with an experiment I did about two years ago. Back in 2004, there was a bruhaha on a local South Florida goth list, with certain people presenting themselves as big defenders of the clubs, flaming and attacking people who disagreed with their opinions, calling them "enemies" of Goth culture.
Well, just for gits and shiggles, I went back and found postings of 15 of the most aggressive and nasty ones, and checked to see if they had profiles on Myspace or Facebook. Out of 15, I located 9. Out of the nine, only two still identified themselves as "goth". The other seven had no indication of any Gothic interests at all, the majority having rap as their primary music interest. Very interesting.

for me a poser would be anybody who tries to be Goth just for attention by usually just dressing the part and having nothing in common with the subculture.

That being said however if someone likes the clothing and wears it but is not Goth that is completely okay as long as they are not labeling themselves as Goth.