I was getting into a pretty heated debate with my husband the other day about whether or not a 'Goth' musican/band cares more about the art they are making than about the money.

He insists that they are the same as mainstream musicians in that if a major record label offered any of them money, they'd sell out in a heartbeat.

I am of the opposite opinion. I believe that ANY true artist has an overbearing need to create/express themselves whether or not there is the Almighty Dollar attached.

What think you?

I don't have an answer for you. I will say this however; when Bauhaus reformed, toured, then broke up again, it sure seemed to me like they just wanted to make a quick buck. Now I don't know if that's the case, I'm just saying that's what it felt like to me. There's no denying that they're talented artists and musicians, but when you know you're going to get a surge of income from a large group of people who see you as the godfathers of goth, well what's a couple of years of getting back together and spitting out an album?

I think it's ironic: denying the "goth" label for so long, being vehemently against being tagged as such, even going so far as to insult the word. But nothing stops them from squeezing every penny from their still-loyal fanbase.

I don't know. Like someone else mentioned on this board, some bands start out really dedicated to their music and their fanbase, but then the moment they hit it big, they turn their backs on their fans and their music slowly becomes sub par.

Basically, what I think, is that no matter what style you play, no matter how much you spew that, "we're individuals and our music is unique; our music and our fans come first" crap, any band is capable of becoming a sell-out. I guess it just happens less in the goth realm.

I dunno, I think people are people, really. It happens less in the realm of underground music, but it doesn't really change.

Depends on the artist themselves, ultimately. There are those who get a bit more success, get a souped up new studio, a larger fanbase, sign to a bigger label, and things just..... happen.
And there are those who fully and truly convince themselves their new commercial sound is their "ultimate artistic vision" and the "best stuff they've ever done, our early stuff was us being angry and musically immature".

Very very sadly, even my beloved Sopor Aeternus has gone down that route on the last 2 releases.

Can't really blame them I suppose. Starving artists make peanuts for several years, suddenly someone offers them lots of cash and a record deal, kinda hard to say no.

Let's not forget that our Dear Anna is olde enough to start getting senile, so I think maybe she's gone off her rocker a bit.

She's 55, I believe.

In the past, she always kept putting herself down and saying how she could never listen to The Inexperienced Spiral Traveler all the way through, being so embarrassed/ashamed of it.

I actually think that's one of he best ones!! She seems to be too utterly "satisfied" with her music now, and I think that's affected it's quality.

I dunno, the majority of artists I find to be best in their earlier grim/angry/darkest periods. However, I think most people disagree with me, and prefer "professional" sounding music over raw atmosphere/emotion.

I would say Lacrimosa definitely sold out!!! Just listen to the uninspired commercial "gothic metal" they play now, compared to their earliest Sopor-esque darkwave albums!!!
NO comparison!!
And charging 65$ for a reserve ticket in a country that has no idea who you are?? Give me a break!

The saddest thing is that I have so many friends who hate Lacrimosa, thinking them to be a commercial "metal" band, completely based on the fact they've only heard their post-1995 material.
For shame!!!

NEVER listen to a band's newer output first!!

That can also apply to Das Ich and Hocico as well. Whenever I hear of a new band, I ALWAYS start out with the first albums/demos first.

That is true. I tend to like a Demo from a really good band because it's so raw and shows there true artistry/potential before they ever get more well known. I so wish She would go back to the depressing & slighty necrophilic stuff of her past, personally. I've yet to actually listen to Spiral Traveler or it's companion the She hates so much. I do like the jungian themes and Middle English references in her music. I miss that!

Yes, in essence, all early Sopor was very Poe-esque, and in my mind, captures the HEART of what goth is all about.
Fantastic, beautiful, ideological, spiritual, surreal, while maintaining a very bleak cryptic atmosphere o cathedrals and graveyards.
Lacrimosa, Das Ich, Goethes Erben, Untoten, Relatives Menschein, Misantrophe, etc. all used to be the same way, but have definitely strayed FAR from that path.

I was actually thinking of something along these line earlier today and I don't know fi I could accuse Goth bands of selling out really, especially compared to the Metal scene. I mean, nearly every reasonably well known Metal band now has not only t shirts out the ass, but posters, coasters, wallets, watches, air freshners for the car, air freshners for the home, air freshners for the toilet, all purpose air freshners, calendars, jackets, bar stools (yes, there is an Iron Maiden bar stool out there somewhere ), coffee mugs, beer steins, baby clothes, car seat covers, hats, those stupid cloth wristband things, action figures, poster flags, head bobbers, books of various kinds, cell phone skins, backpacks, I could go on forever actually. But ever try to find a Bauhaus bar stool or a Mephisto Walz pocket watch? How about a Fields of the Nephilim calendar or a Lycia coffee mug? Thankfully, to my knowledge, none of those things exist.

I would personally measure a bands sellout status on how much useless crappy merchandise they have to sell. I've tried getting just a Sisters of Mercy t shirt for years with no luck.

A little merchandising isn't a BAD thing, imho. But it's got to be tasteful, there's a line [not even a fine line] between selling buttons, bumperstickers and tshirts: and becoming Krusty the clown from the simpsons.

Sure there are bands like Kiss [no explanation should be necessary], or Metallica [instructing their fans to distribute their music and then going after napster once they became a household name].

But then there is the Beatles, who have sold enough merchandise to fill I don't know how many landfills over the years. It's one of the reasons why their franchise is richer than god. But, unlike Kiss that got into the cheesy plastic action figures, low end plastic/rubber watches like you used to get in a happy meal, and other krusty-ish things, the quality of their stuff was usually better than that (like their trading cards back in the 90s, or that really ingenious apple usb drive from last year). [that doesn't mean their not sell outs exactly, I have a bone to pick with them over some of the Beatles-Apple Computers lawsuits on that note].

The Beatles have sold plastic action figures of a sort, based off the Yellow Submarine movie. My brother has the whole set. I envy him.

They're weird action figures, but they're still action figures.

I don't know, though. I can imagine it would be an easy trap to fall into for anybody. If you have enough money that you no longer need to worry about making money to get by, then you can spend your time creating whatever you want and not concerning yourself with how successful it will be, so it could be that some musicians start out by telling themselves, "I'm just doing it until I can get to that point," and then get lost along the way.

Well, I believe ol' Andrew right from the start formed The Sisters to "hear himself on the radio".
The other guys(Wayne, Craig, Gary, etc.) WERE into the goth scene (or what later became it), so I guess the Sisters wouldn't have become as big an influence on the goth scene if it weren't for A. their influence, and B. the fact they were from Leeds, one of the big "goth hotspots" at the time.
I suppose it's impossible not to become somewhat influenced by what people around you are doing.

I need a definition of 'selling out'.

Lots of bands that have made gazillions are first rate.

A lot of obscure bands are obscure for a reason, and deservedly so.

And many are in between.

That depends on which scene they're from. I mean, the metal scene isn't exactly 'underground' anymore, even Black Metal is pretty popular.

Selling out would be something like....Anna Varney signing with Sony or Virgin records just to be a millionaire and have even more people know who she is while letting the record company have complete control over what she's 'allowed' to do.

*shudders*

These days, at least in America, you really can't find an artist with any integrity because everyone's all about how much money they can make instead of having talent. Do you really think Miley Cyrus is famous because she's got talent?

Thinking about sheeple is giving me a headache.