Yeah, both genres have pretty misanthropic lyrics, but I don't think that Goth music is nearly as open about it as Metal is. They may have rants on a few songs, but when Carpathian Forest has an album entitled "Fuck You All," it's really easy to listen to a Diary of Dreams or Christian Death record and go "This is really quite tame" that's really where I was coming from on the whole thing.

I really couldn't hear Rozz Williams singing "My Death." Well ... nevermind, I take that back actually, that would've been awesome if he did it.

You know what, thanks for pointing that out. I know quite a few Goth fanatics who think Black Metal is "primal and unsophisticated," but I also have a couple "kvlt" friends that think Goth is for "pretentious pricks." I used to have to be the mediator between the two groups in arguments, but now I can just say "Fuck all of you! They're exactly the same, just presented differently."

Anyway, back on to the whole Gothic Metal thing. It's really subjective, I think we've established that much; I know quite a few people who would categorize Opeth under the genre, but would categorize Lacuna Coil as Nu-Metal. Just up to your own ears, I guess.

I don't know if I'd say they're exactly the same. They have dark imagery. They have lyrics about death, doom, and general nastiness. I think the similarities end there. And I even like black metal, particularly Burzum.

I find a lot of people confused about this all the time; so I researched it awhile ago. This is the best definition I found:

[url=null]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_metal[/url]

Basicly what wikipedia states is that the genre known as "Gothic Metal" has absolutely nothing to do with the genre known as gothic rock, or the goth subculture for that matter.

It is labeled Gothic for its visuals and lyrical elements resembling the Victorian era.



Edited By Schöner-Dorn on 1187565193

I never said black metal and gothic/darkwave were the exact same. Obviously if someone`s going to make ridiculous comparisons like "Sisters of Mercy = Marduk", for example, or have only really heard this new school commercial black/thrash nonsense like new Dimmu Borgir for another example, obviously there`s no common ground.

However, I`ve been listening to both genres for a good 13 years or so, and what I DID point out, is that there are a lot of gothic overtones and influences in traditional black metal, particularly the more atmospheric bands like the ones I listed. I mean, a lot of the old gothic rock bands used a very similar production, trembly guitar style, similar minor chord melodies, classical/folk overtones, and romanticist lyrics.

For example, is there such a giant gap between Summoning and Dead Can Dance??
What about a lot of these French bands, such as Mutiilation, Celestia, or Darvulia?? Many of them sound much like stripped down, raw gothic rock with raspy vocals.

I think the two genres are about as relevant to each other as gothic and industrial.
Stylistically very different, but aesthetically and ideologically compatible(in their true forms) and many crossovers popping up now and then.

I can see why a lot of goths dislike metal, or black metal for being unsophisticated. I, for one, hate stereotypical metal bands with simple-minded "Kill Christians, Hail Satan" lyrics, who sound like pure noise. I`ve also had many negative experiences with the stereotypical dirty stoner metal fans and their loud, mysogynistic, racist, homophobic attitudes. However, I`ve also met my fair share of decent lads in the metal scene and who are able to show mutual respect.
In Germany and Japan, the two scenes are connected.

Back to the "gothic metal" argument: when I think of "gothic metal", I think of bands who literally infuse gothic/darkwave influences into metal, or who employ similar dark romanticist atmospherics. Therefore, My Dying Bride qualifies.
It has nothing to do with whether or not female vocals are involved. Many of these "Beauty and the Beast" bands hardly have any gothic elements at all.

I quoted Paradox, not you centurion.

What I'm trying to get at is that if you strip away the keyboards and drum machines from Goth and the distorted guitars and blast beats from Metal, they both have essentially the same core elements. For a while now I've generally had the genres under the same category, but for some reason I've always listed Black Metal in a category all to itself.

I mean, yeah, nobody from Bella Morte is going to run out and start burning churches and Goth music artists are generally more "quiet" about their beliefs, but that's the only major difference that I can see now, personally.

*Sigh* My Dying Bride is NOT gothic metal. End of story. I admit that very few of their songs have a decidly gothic feel to them, but that doesn't make them a gothic band. If a band was gothic for any of the reasons you've stated, most alternative bands would be gothic.


Yes it does. Gothic metal uses male and female vocals. That's what the word gothic means when applied as a prefix to the word metal. If the word "gothic" is applied before the word "metal", then the band uses male and female vocals. It really is as simple as that, believe it or not.

By the way, it seems kind of coincidental that we are discussing gothic metal on a Goth forum It's not like gothic metal has anything to do with being Goth. It's completely unrelated, as Schöner-Dorn quoted, to the Goth subculture. This time Wikipedia is actually right.

And I`m arguing the contrary..... I admit, there are bands like Tristania, Mandragora Scream, and Theatre of Tragedy who have some darker, more gothic elements in their music, but I don`t understand where this association with female/male vocals and whether or not a metal band is categorized "gothic metal" comes from.

The word itself denotes a fusion of gothic music and metal, and believe it or not, there ARE bands out there who do this.

I don`t understand where this form of categorization comes from, considering most gothic ROCK bands themselves do not use male/female vocals.

The argument is that gothic metal has nothing to do with gothic music BECAUSE it is a miscategorization of the wrong kinds of bands.

Yes, fair enough. To be very purist about it, you could just about call any band that uses dark imagery and lyrics etc in their music gothic. I prefer to define the genre "gothic metal" by the way I have already described, which I have found to be the most common view. (By the younger generation, anyway.)

I wish that the gothic metal *I* am talking about didn't use the word "gothic". It implies too much and doesn't really describe the music very well, compared to "black" metal, "power" metal or "doom" metal. You get a pretty good idea of what the music MIGHT sound like just from those prefixes. But "gothic" metal? Could be just about anything. But I think it is just the way genre names have evolved, most people I have talked to have described metal bands that use again, growled male/clean female vocals to be gothic. I don't know why, but it has most likely become that way by misinformed people e.g. people who have nothing to do with the goth subculture.

I can't be bothered being a purist and making a noise about it just because I don't like the fact that they use the word gothic. I've found that it's pretty widely accepted and since I don't really give a crap whether a bunch of try hard little teenagers listen to gothic metal and call themselves goths, it doesn't really bother me all.

You know, we are probably both right to some degree on this one, centurion. One is definitely more of a purist if one generalises bands to be gothic, based on their image/lyrical content. It doesn't really bother me what genre a band belongs to and I won't judge a band by their perceived genre. I bet a hell of a lot of people have discussed this exact same issue but I seriously doubt it has been concluded in a way that a single meaning for "gothic metal" is decided.

I just listen to the frickin music and turn it off I'd I don't like it, be it goth rock, doom metal, gothic metal or hip-hop.

Not to be one of those anti-wiki pedants, but Wikipedia only says whatever the last person editing the entry decided to say. For instance, I once edited the entry for The Knack's My Sharona to add the phrase, "It is a proven fact that one cannot listen to this song without bopping in time." It's only recently been edited back out.


And I can't help but roll my eyes at the whole "does gothic metal exist" question. Genres - and more importantly, sub-genres - exist solely for the purpose of shelving in the shops. And for creating arguments between people who take it all a little too seriously.

Most of the time the content on Wikipedia is right, just make sure the sources are cited, and make sure you check the sources to make sure the information is accurate, otherwise treat the information with scepticism.
In this case however, I think Wikipedia's article is pretty accurate in most respects.


Yes I agree. I think this whole debate is pretty silly to be quite honest.

I feel myself that it certainly does exist, but how you define it is the same way that people would probably define people as goths too I expect. We all know we're goths at heart, but average Joe Public will see us all lined up and have different ideas I expect based on the common stereotype.

I personally feel (to myself at least) that gothic metal entails the type of work that fills you with the correct atmosphere. I therefore fully agree with Paradox665 here, and I believe Cradle of Filth could quite easily be classed as just that. Their music gives me the 'right feeling' if that's the best way to describe it.

I've been listening to metal for the majority of my years, and I am pretty confused now by all the various names that have cropped up, especially in the last few years. There really used to be just heavy metal, then some of the growling bands came along and produced the likes of thrash and then the next thing you know you've got virtually every band with a different label attached! This is not helped by some bands being listed as metal when they are obviously more in the rock/pop type category - ie read the pages or watch the Kerrang channel and there's a hell of a lot of this new stuff which is probably more suited to Top of the Pops!
I digress....sorry.
To summarise, I think everyone will have their own ideas and opinions on what is Gothic Metal, and like everything else, it will be down to the individual what they like.

Actual "Goth" music doesn't usually use both male and female vocals, so why should "Gothic Metal"? The concept of "Gothic" is more along the lines of an aestetic *Think "Gothic Arcitecture", for one*, and if the lyrics have that "eerie" feel, it doesn't matter if it's got male, female, or both vocals. If that were the defining point, that'd make Cradle of Filth "Gothic Metal".

But the biggest confusion for people is that they think a metal band with heavy black make-up, "Goth-Like" outfits, and whiteface are "Goth" elements, therefore making the band "Gothic Metal", which is a commin misconception that makes the barriers harder for outsiders to understand, compared to people who know what real Goth subculture and music is about.

So Impavidus, I can respect the fact that you've got an opinion on the matter that you feel strongly about, but I have to disagree with your statement about the mixed gender vocals being the aspect that makes "Gothic Metal" as such.

Search for "gothic metal" on Limewire. You'll see.

PS I am tired of this pointless argument so anyone don't bother quoting me to get an answer

Finally he figures it out!