I get the feeling that a large proportion of goths feel that their individualism is one of their most important attributes. To some of us, Goth is a way of life and a way of thinking, not merely a subculture of fashion and music.

But to what end, are we this way? I want to know WHY we are the way we are. What are we consciously OR unconsciously trying to achieve? I believe that every human action and intention has a concrete purpose, be it unconscious or conscious. Why have we chosen the way we dress, the music we listen to and the people we associate with? What is the purpose behind it all?

Some people say that individualism is a fixation on the way we appear to others. This may be true. Would we for example dress the way we do if everybody else dressed the same way? Or would we be dressing as colourfully as possible? Are we expressing OURSELVES or a desire to appear different?

My interpretation of one of Carl Jung's theories is, put simply, that the fixation on the way we appear to others is shallow and egocentric, and allows us to settle into mental "ruts" from which we do not unconsciously remove ourselves from. I respect Jung's opinions and if, in this case, my interpretation is correct, I believe he may be right. To me, gothicism is for a large part a personal journey to a greater understanding of the world around me and also an attempt to make myself a better person in a time of degeneration. In the Integration of the Personality, Jung describes his beliefs that we can improve our personality, the person we are inside, by introspection. By stepping out of our mental comfort zones, we might identify the negative aspects of ourselves and to improve ourselves based on these new realisations.

If every person in the world did this, and achieved a positive result, would that spell the end of gothicism? Or would be all become clones of one another, reminsicent of Aldous Huxley's dystopian Brave New World?

I am asking myself this question: Am I REALLY anything remotely like a true goth, or am I just kidding myself? Or are we goths truly the quantum particles of human society?

To any psychologists out there: If I have completely misinterpreted what Carl Jung was trying to say, please let me know. And on the same note... does anyone here have theories on the pyschology behind gothicism?

(PS: If this is mindless rambling, please also let me know. It's been a long day today and I might be speaking my strange thought patterns aloud... Also please note that I'm not trying to exclude people or define exactly what goth is. I don't think that's really possible. What I am trying to achieve here is find out whether there is some sort of single common factor that makes a person attracted to the dark side of things. If you feel excluded from this thread and don't feel like you qualify to post a reply, tell me why! I'd be very interested. )

Gothism huh? I get a little touchy when somebody tells me stories with there encounters with goths...It makes me look little when compared..It hurts

Trying to think how I can break this down correctly. Stop me if I make a mistake or trip over my words.

Personally i've always been different. Even back in elementry school I took shit from other people for being myself. But once I got older my music taste still stayed more advanced than anyone my age. Only difference is I dressed the way I wanted to. Instead of being dressed in skater clothes (when I didn't skate then) in elementry school. So i'd say I got myself as a whole in check now. My message is basically "I am me, I am an individual. Can't deal with it? Tough shit!". Sorry if it was blunt but honestly i've had people try telling me to dress differently just to get women. To me that would just be a lie not only to myself but to women.

Hope that gives you at least some idea about what I see as individuality while i'm in the subculture.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but the reason why we have chosen to listen to the music and such is the fact that we all like the music, or all like the style of dress.



If everyone else started dressing the same way, (which is pretty unlikely - I think I remember a thread on that?), then I wouldn't change the way I dress/wear bright colours because I want to look 'different' or 'individual' - there are plenty of things that can make an outfit individual anyway. (For example a few cute accessories, or even making your own clothes.)

I do see where you're coming from there, and I'm not really sure how to phrase my reply so it makes sense, so I hope you get the jist of what I'm (attempting) to say. For me though, like I said, I dress the way I do because I like it. No other reason - I don't care if other people dislike it because they have different (and obviously terrible ) taste.

The majority of the time I'm wearing normal jeans and a plain tshirt (the one I'm wearing now is bright green ). I dress the way I like, which in my opinion makes me individual because I'm not 'copying' other people, I just get inspiration from it, or I simply like the 'style'.

Hope that made some sort of sense, I read your post quite quickly, Impavidus (too much gaming today, my eyes are tired).





~Angel
Edited for typos....

I can't tell you what I'm unconciously trying to achieve (it being unconscious and all ). Conciously, however, I'm just trying to be happy. I listen to music I find interesting, I wear clothes I like, I associate with people who aren't stupid or boring.


Going out of your way to look or act differently from everyone else is a fixation on the way you appear to others. It's just the opposite extreme of feeling the need to conform to whatever everyone else does. However, there's a lot of gray area in either direction for dressing however you want.

As to whether I'd still be wearing black if everyone else did, that depends on why everyone else is wearing black. If black still has the same cultural connotations and people have suddenly become accepting of those facets of life, then yes. Black would still represent something about my emotional and mental state. On the other hand, if black is now popular because it's developed the emotional impact of, say, orange, then no. I don't feel orange, even if it's black.



I think you might actually find just the opposite happening. First, people follow trends and fall into ruts because they're afraid. They believe acting "off" will cause other people not to like or respect them. Second, there is no such thing as complete happiness or total mental stability. The world is too chaotic and the human brain too sensitive to chaos to allow for that. However, if more people were to find the strength to face their inner demons and deal with them honestly, they might actually figure out that it's necessary to deal with the outer world as an individual rather than a part of a herd.



What the hell is a "true goth"? Did I miss the memo on goth standards? And, if there are no such standards yet, who's to say that you or I or anyone else on this board isn't the absolute pinnacle of gothic perfection and the very benchmark by which all other goths should be judged? Seriously, that was a goofy question.

I'm afraid I have to agree. I've always been a nonconformist, and not by choice; I just have a lot of trouble "getting" normal behavior (and people used to always say I was a nonconformist, and the shoe fits). But what really brought me to industrial and some goth music is just that I like it. As for dressing in black, my reasons have changed over time, when I was young it was for shock value, but now it's because I like to try to express myself artistically through my dress.

And ultimately, it's really subjective. It's not a well thought out process, just me doing what I feel best doing. The rest is just overanalyzation.

Angel,



I definitely know what you mean. I wear the clothes I wear and I listen to the music I do for exactly the same reason you do, simply because I like it. What I meant was... "Why do we LIKE the music and clothes (etc) that we do?" Like yourself, if everybody started dressing "gothy", that wouldn't change ME either. I would still like what I like now. The only thing that would induce me to change what clothes I wear was if I was being grouped in with people who's values were different to mine. I've never been part of a "goth scene" and most goths around Hamilton, New Zealand are the Slipknot/My Chemical Romance types and I don't indentifiy with them, so really it doesn't matter much to me how I appear to others. What matters to me is the way I think and my own personal tastes. So personally, I MIGHT change the way I looked if everyone else started trying to look as goth as possible, but it's unlikely. That question was hypothetical by the way; I didn't actually mean that it was a likely scenario.

Kitsune,

Fair enough. But do you have any theories WHY you like these things?



Interesting. I've never really thought about clothes or colours having an emotion impact as such but I guess that's exactly why we wear what clothes we choose to, because they represent the way we feel inside. Thanks.



I agree with you in principle, when you say that there is no such thing as complete human happiness... but only under the current accepted societal/intellectual model. We humans are still essentially unhappy beings, despite thousands of years of cultural evolution. I wonder if that's because humans will always find something to be unhappy about? Today's world would be something of a utopia to an ancient man. All his issues e.g. not enough food, medicine, a roof over his head; all these issues would be solved for him in modern life. However, he would probably find other things to be unhappy about. Things in the future may change, things that we can't even imagine will come to pass, but the one thing that will most likely not change is our ingrained attitude that nothing is ever good enough. It seems that we humans will never be happy until we stop trying to improve our quality of life but our personalities. I think that's a much more achievable goal that can be attained by any individual, and a person does not have to rely on somebody else to acheive this ultimate personality. (Ultimate being the degree of perfection attainable by the average human.) The reason we humans have advanced as far as we have is not because of inherent curiosity but because of our inherent dissatisfaction with the world around us. If we can conquer THAT part of ourself, we can stop DEvolving and start EVOLVING. That's where I differ from you regarding the issue of the human psyche's susceptibility to the so-called problems that surround us and the rest of the world. Maybe we just need to stop seeing our petty human problems as PROBLEMS, and start using our billions of brains as they should be used, as the most powerful intellectual "computers" in the solar system.

While it is nice to think that some things are only definable in shades of grey, realisitically everything can be narrowed down to black or white, true or false, 1 or 0, or right or wrong. Mathematically I belive this is true, even though I don't claim to be a mathematician. Something is either right, or it is wrong. The only thing that we can only treat as truly undefineable in terms of true or false is quantum theory. From this argument I propose this: That every person who claims to be a goth either IS or ISN'T. It is something of a paradox, though, because maybe the only true way of finding out who a true goth is by finding some kind pf median value of each set of beliefs of each true goth. But this can't be done unless we already know what a true goth is... and so on. For that reason, I agree with you that the question was pretty silly. However I didn't really expect the question to be answered... it was more of an aporia as I do consider myself to be something of a goth, whatever that mightr be. You might say I am, more so than most, you may say less than most. It's up to an individual's interpretation.

I see what you mean now - what you're asking is more than just 'Why do you listen to the music you do', but more along the lines of 'Why do you like the music that you listen to?' or 'Why do you like the style of dress?' etc?

It's an interesting question, one that is a bit harder to answer. I like to socialize with people who are interesting and have something to say, because I enjoy having conversations with people. I enjoy my work because it means I get to interact with a lot of different people, and usually I have some interesting conversations with them.

But then you could ask 'Why do I like having interesting conversations?, or Why do you enjoy socializing with these sorts of people', I suppose. I've always enjoyed the company of people who like to talk about anything and everything - I dislike socializing with people who only complain about events happening in their life, or bitch about other people. I've always been a sociable person - I enjoy the company of intelligent people. Perhaps that has something to do with the way I've been brought up. My family often had friends and other family round, and as I child I was always been encouraged to 'mix' with other children. I dislike people who are boring because I have always been around people who are either out going, or who like to sit down with a coffee and have a chat.

The people on this forum are all intelligent guys, and the reason I come to this forum is because there's interesting conversation going on thats not 'Woe is me! The world hates me!' etc. This thread for example is thought provoking, as are other threads on this board. Again, though, you might want to ask 'But WHY do you like that?' etc .

We all listen to music because we like it, sure. But the reason we like it? I don't know. I like classic rock, perhaps because my Dad has always liked that sort of thing, so again perhaps it has something to do with the way we're brought up? On the other hand, my Dad likes classical and country music, and I don't. I like EBM, Industrial, Synthpop stuff, and I have no idea why I like it - I just 'do', which isn't a very good psychological answer

As for the clothes we wear... I like it because I find it interesting. But then I like some of the latest High Street stuff too. My taste is pretty varied. I work in retail in a store that sells all the 'latest fashion trends' etc, and since I've been working there I've started to like a fair amount of what we sell. Perhaps working there has had some sort of influence. The women I work with sometimes compliment me on clothes that I'm wearing, which perhaps makes me 'like' it more?

I like wearing bright colours more when it's warm and sunny - perhaps there's a link there? I like Kitsune's theory about the emotional impact of colours, how you wear black because you feel 'black', not 'orange'. Maybe we all wear black because we 'feel' black emotionally, but we might wear, say... yellow, because we feel 'yellow' (You could link yellow to 'happy', 'sunny', 'summer' etc) Maybe this is more of unconscious decision, rather than a conscious one?

In all honesty, my post was more 'perhaps it's this' or 'maybe it's because...', but you might be able to take the 'maybe's' a bit further, and post some other suggestions? I'm interested in which of Carl Jung's theories you're using? I know he did some work with Freud, and work about the 'collective unconscious' and 'archetypes'.




~Angel

In agreement with everyone else, yeh, I dress the way I do and listen to the music I do because I like it. And why do I like these particular things?

I believe it all depends on your upbringing and where and waht you've experienced in life so far. I reckon all the hell I took in school made me mature a little faster than the rest - and as such I can find a typical teenager my age really really damn fucking annoying! Mostly I think that, and constant rejection in school has developed me into the style I have adopted now. Sure, I'm not above a few mainstream fashions, but I am confortable in the way I am, and my experiences in life so far have led me to be secure in this manner. Whether this is because the goth scene is usually very accepting of the majority of people, I don't know, and even though I hardly class myself as goth, I think people who try to be individual are really just either lost and rebelling, or like me, find such a style comfortable and natural, which is fair enough really.

As for my music - well. Perhaps as Hell's Angel mentioned, parental influences can influence people to adopt certain types of music.
My other reasons for why I like the music I do is because of the way that I can indentify extremely well with most of the lyrics of the songs. And I find metal and/or rock music to be very passionate. Needless to say, when I'm down and and I feel like shit, I love the way I can relate to my music, it's like something that will remind me I'll always be okay.

...I don't think this post is really making any sense.

I think to summarise it...it all depends on your upbringing, your parental influences, the experiences you've been through in life. Music taste can be a major indication of someone's style, both are closely linked. Still, individualism amongst goths can also be something that we like to do to set ourselves apart from the 'babybats'; almost like other goths like to be individual to set themselves apart from mainstream society. It really all comes down to you and your choices as an individual person in this world.


I'm now going to shut up as I doubt I'm very understandable!

~Kitty

If I really gave you the sort of answer this question deserves, you'd have a dissertation length post. :b

Music:
I just have a gut reaction to certain music. Sometimes because it reminds me of people, places, or things I like to think about. Sometimes because I "feel" the rhythm or a guitar riff or something.

Clothes:
I have to move a lot or else I go insane; my clothes reflect that. My choices also depend on how I'm feeling that day (I tend to be uber casual when I feel yucky), whether I'm having a masculine or feminine day (gender issues ??? ), and what I'm expecting to do.

People:
This is a toughie because I really can't understand why I like or dislike people. Consciously, I usually put more emphasis on having similar values than similar interests; I can usually find more common ground with an open minded "norm" than a snotty goth. Unconsciously, I just don't know. I probably make decisions on really stupid grounds like 'does this person walk like my dad' or something.

That's my attempt at a brief explanation.

Angel's point about the individuality in outfits that are seemingly the same ring true. I know people who have gone to catholic schools where they have to wear uniforms, and there's a way to make the exact same outfit different at the same time, you know?
I can relate to *Miss Enigma*'s point too though, in a way. When I'm with my friends, some of them will be looking at some Mansonite with the Crow reject make-up and say "Now there's a Goth" or something like that, and I'm sitting there, thinking "Thats a Chuck Follower! Eww! I know about the subculture, so you can ask me stuff, ya goofs!!" (Chuck is the biggest Mansonite poseur I have seen in my school since the kid who went to my school before who was the exact same). But nonetheless, just because I don't wear whiteface and I don't wear Tripp doesn't make me not goth. If anything, it makes me more goth. Just remember that, Miss Enigma! I'm with ya!

Impavidus, you've brought a very intriguing set of questions to the board! I think that they delve more deeply into the 'very fibre' of what makes up personality than even the wisest psychologists and philosophers have been able to answer, though.

I've wondered some of the same things about myself (it looks as though several of us have), and I can offer only a few, partial explanations which may not really be applicable as a basis for understanding personality in general.

Almost everything about my family and the culture in which I was raised ought to have discouraged me from pursuing "goth" interests. I was not allowed to wear black - even to funerals - listen to unusual music, celebrate Halloween, or deviate from acceptable opinions. Part of this came from a fundamentalist religion and part from my family's desire to continue to climb socially (although the conflict of those two ideals always struck me as darkly amusing).

Despite gaining no discernable benefit from my personal tastes, I still believed the Addams were the ideal family, I still risked punishment by dyeing my hair green, and I still searched everywhere for songs that pulled at that exquisite place in my chest.

I had never heard the label "goth" except in reference to architecture, literature, and, of course, the Visigoths/Ostrogoths. I felt as though I arrived at my favourite writers, artists, musicians, etc. piece by piece and by personal taste alone. When, as a teenager, I found they all fell under the "goth" umbrella, I didn't know whether to laugh or feel embarrassed for being, ultimately, not as original and individualistic as I had thought.

I know that some of my personal evolution can be attributed to a need to rebel against cultural limitations (although I don't really understand why I should be one of the few who strained against the rules). Another factor was almost certainly the transferring of my self-view to other objects, i.e. seeing beauty in the grotesque, the dark, or the rejected.

But I cannot explain that core desire that makes me find the night sky more beautiful than the sun, the decay of time more comforting than things that are new and fresh, the ache of a bittersweet melody more uplifting than peppy songs. I only know that I spend every day immersed in the loveliest sounds, sights, and textures, and I am happy.

It will be fascinating if, in the future, personality, lifestyle, and aesthetic preferences can be distilled into a mathematical formula that explains all people.

I'm not a person that cares about individuality. I care about self-identity.

I would rather be like everyone else if everyone else was like me, than change my personality so that I would once more be different.

I always say 'gothic' is all just about the music; everything else is just a nice aggregate to it.
Of course, music says a lot about our personality, so it wouldn't suprise us to find that many of us 'goths' have similar tastes when we enjoy to basically the same music.
We were who we were; we happen to fit in this subculture.
But, believing that the subculture itself will not change us in the least is naive.
Things like wearing black, preferring boots rather than shoes, finding a 'new born interest for the darkness' and stuff like that are not necessarily preferences we were born with; they're the types of characteristics that are bound to happen within a closed community.



Edited By Godslayer Jillian on 1182712646

I just wanted to say that these comments by Godslayer Jillian were as closely aligned with my thoughts as any could be. I especially clicked with Self-identity vs. Individuality. I could care less about concerted efforts for individuality, as that by its nature has to take other people into account. Self-identity seems a more concise description of what's happening.

Well put.

I don't really think about it much because it's not that interesting to me, but I think goths sort of come to be out of their own creative imaginations or fantasies or perceptions of things they envy. Let's say you're watching a sci fi movie or playing a videogame and you think "wow that character's costume is really cool." Now you could either make it yourself or find something that captures the essence of it. That's basically how I view our kind of individuality: we make our own stuff but frequently we base our style around fantasy. Just like all the vampire clothes out there, clearly based on vampires (duh). Unfortunately the goth scene is getting lost to these ideas of "cookie cutter goths," which lead many goths to believe they have to wear shiny black clothes. Goth shouldn't just be about being different. It's just that the sort of things goths wear ARE different, and in this way the concept of nonconformity is glorified to a point where we lose sight of why we dress like that in the first place. For guys who wear makeup, do they do it for the thrill and the shock? or because they like the way they look in it? We should always remind ourselves everyday as we squeeze into tight black pants and smear our eyeliner why we're doing it, and what exactly it means to us, just to make sure the reasons balance out the reactions.