The theory of evolution--that current forms of life are descendant from earlier forms of life as they altered to adapt to new environments over hundreds of millions of years--is completely compatible with a belief in God and/or a spiritual dimension to existence.

The work of the French philosopher and anthropologist Teilhard de Chardin [also, by the way, a Jesuit priest] is completely based around this notion, as is that of the earlier French philosopher Bergson.

The Hindu/Buddhist notions of reincarnation are basically a spiritual expression of the evolution of souls [even though, technically speaking, Buddhists don't strictly believe in such a thing] through vast tracts of time.

That's why I can't quite understand the objection fundies have to evolution: it's NOT a matter of choosing between God and biology at all. If their thinking were a little deeper and more sophisticated on these matters they'd realize that and not be so frightened of the concept.

Apparently the folks down in Texas forgot about that wonderful document called the Constitution, and one of the 1st Amendments to that document, the call for the separation of church and state. Disturbing if you ask me because of what it could lead to. If you allow one religion, than you'll need to make way for every other Tom, Dick and Harry religion out there. The people who think these things up are really not thinking long term. We are a Judeo-Christian nation, however, our Constitution says religion is something that is private and not public to not be endorsed by the state. May be at the next school board meeting, some one ought to bring with them a copy of the U.S. Constitution along with the amendments so that they can get a proper schooling on the Constitution.

As to teaching about Confederate leaders, I don't have a problem with that. The politically correct, neo-liberals, historical revisionists and luddites have done a bang up job in telling U.S. history. Our schools have done an injustice in teaching the most lopsided view of U.S. history; especially about the Confederates that really is an insult to one's intelligence. Keep in mind, I grew up and was raised in NYC, where the common view is that Confederate leader were just Southern slave owning rich thugs that fought a war for cotton and to keep black people as slaves.

I'd rather have an informed child who is told both sides, or points of view about the Confederate States and United States, than someone who is simply told the Union side. I think in this regard, the school board is right and wise to do that and allow the students to use critical thinking to see what values, principles and rights both sides were fighting for.

Gotta love Texas!

The objection is that they teach the THEORY as fact. It isn't fact...there are still holes in the theory of evolution. They should teach simply as a theory of how life on earth began. However, there were textbooks and teachers even in my time in grade school that taught the subject as, "This IS what happened"....not "This may have been what happened".

It goes along with the whole idea of TEACHING toward a particular set of religious beliefs or political beliefs. Beliefs are not fact! Yes, I feel in my heart that there is a God, and I accept that Christ was my Savior...but that does not necessarily make it a fact. I could be wrong! No one knows for certain what awaits us after this life until this life has ended. I believe what I believe, and others believe what they believe. Same thing for political beliefs and values. It is the person's choice to be more conservative or liberal...or to live somewhere down the middle. It isn't for schools to influence you in either direction!

Evolution is a fact. And a theory. It's a fact that populations of organisms evolve over time, through changes in their gene pool. That's been observed and proven to be true. But evolution is also a theory in that scientists work to explain how these evolutionary changes take place.

But I understand what you mean about teaching "This IS what happened... not "This may have been what happened." Although I must say that I haven't ever encountered any teachers -- both when I was a child at school and even today as an adult -- who teach that we know precisely what happened at the beginning of time.

-- Nephele

On this I agree 100% with you: teachers who use their positions as pulpits to push ANY idea or interpretation at the expense of others drive me stark raving batty!!

The only reservation I have when it comes to the subject of evolution is that there are no real rival models to compete with it as of this time. Who knows? That could change in the future if evidence embarrassing to evolution is unearthed, and believe me, no one will be happier than ME at seeing the likes of Richard Dawkins [that smug a-hole!] running around like a chicken with his head cut off as the theory upon which he based his entire life comes crashing down!

-- Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:03 pm --



Thanks for that, Phenom!

Bang-on-the-money!

If my children ever do get into regular classes I will have a SERIOUS issue if they are taught creationism or intelligent design! As Nephele pointed out: a scientific theory is a whole different animal compared to a personal theory like the two I just mentioned. I always lay my money on science if I have to bet. At least they try to go with facts rather than beliefs. I'm not adverse to getting the ACLU or local media involved if they try to teach things to my children against my personal beliefs. Since they are special needs I may not have that worry, though.

Not to get too off-topic, but every time I see some ignorant shit like that I want to scratch my eyes out. Theory doesn't mean that it hasn't been proven. Theory in the case of evolution means a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. If we start saying that something isn't true because it is labeled a theory, then say goodbye to gravitational theory, quantum theory, the theory of flight, chaos theory...you see where I am going here?

Add to that the fact that some outside the scientific world will have you think that scientists don't agree on the "theory of evolution" which is quite literally a bunch of conservative bullshit.

Creationism isn't even a science - not even close. It's been dis proven. The planet is more than 6000 years old. We are not all born of Adam and Eve. The earth was certainly not created in 7 days.

I just can't understand why religious people have such a hard time believing that evolution or that the Big Bang is how it really happened. Why does science have to be such an "affront to God/Allah/Yaweh/Whoever"? Why can't people of faith buy into the simple fact that perhaps that's how it really happened, their God(s) may have had a hand in the whole thing and that the men who wrote the holy books simply got it wrong because they lacked the ability to understand it during their time? If I was religious, I would be WAY more impressed if I knew my God planned back billions of years and started everything that now is rather than thinking that the world was made so quickly, is so young and that I am nothing more than a rib.

Again, sorry for the rant, but I feel that strongly. This sort of crap is precisely why I am determined to home school my son.

~spidey

Heh, you go Spidey!

I can get on board with the whole "this is what we think happened at the beginning of time". I have no problem with that because that's really how it is. We can't go back to the start, but we are getting VERY close to proving that it's possible that's what happened, but again we can't go back in time and know for certain - we just have a very good idea that it is indeed what happened.

As for holes in the theory of evolution, I once had a Philosophy professor explain his idea that a lot of people believe in the "god of the holes". What he meant was that if there is a hole in the theory of evolution, the religious are quick to say "AH-HA! It must be God!" where as the scientists press on and look for the missing link. Their job is never ending since there could be 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000 specimens that have evolved between something as simple as two types of baboons.

~spidey

A common myth, but incorrect. A secular school system by definition shouldn't promote any religious views. That's why it's called a secular school system. Separation of church and state means separation of church and state, not the state sponsoring of everything but atheism.



Here's a brief summation of the history of which we're speaking:

Texas seceded from Mexico because many of the settlers wished to violate Mexican law by practicing slavery. The United States then annexed Texas, leading directly to the Mexican-American War, in which the U.S. stole quite an array of land from Mexico (including California, for example). When the American Civil War broke out not long thereafter, Texas chose to join the Confederate side for the same reason it had seceded from Mexico: to maintain its system of slave labor. The aim of the Confederacy was to conquer to the United States and re-impose a slave labor system on the entire Union.

That people like Robert E. Lee might have expressed doubts about slavery does not begin to make them historical role models in my book, for they were nonetheless willing to fight and kill others in an attempted conquest of the Union in de facto defense of the said institution. History should not be revised to portray these sorts of individuals as heroes.

Not that the United States itself was founded on anything more moral or that I consider Lincoln exactly a going role model either, but there's no question in my mind that there was a progressive side and a reactionary side in the American Civil War and I fail to see how anyone can possibly draw a different conclusion.

On Evolution:

Without transforming this into a full-blown debate on the subject, I'll add my two cents as well. Exploring this question of evolution as "just a theory", paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould provided the following insight that I think is worthy of reflection:

"Evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

Evolution is one of the most thoroughly established scientific facts out there at this point. To claim in the 21st century that evolution does not occur is like continuing to argue that the world is flat and that that should be taught as an equally valid argument in public schools. Facts should be taught as facts, not as opinions.

Some people will recall the Relativism thread I created not too long ago. The prevalence of this sort of nonsense is precisely the reason I wanted to establish the point that facts exist. The teaching of evolution as an opinion is, as we can see with the OP, but a stepping stone for the advocates thereof. The final goal is the complete elimination of the barrier between church and state.

On Home-Schooling

Withdrawing the youth from community seems to me a rather anti-social and unproductive response. In my view, the sort of agenda we're discussing should be confronted straight up and challenged rather than avoided. It's the policy that needs to change, not the individual.

POint me to JUST ONE transitional fossil, I bet you can't.
SEE? You can't can you? Must have been God, hiding them from the evil evolutionists. Oh wait....

Ahahahaha....of course I would love to see one. Maybe THAT'S what the platypus is! It's transitioning from duck to beaver! lol

~spidey

Well.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archeopterix
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tr ... al_fossils

More fun is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocoduck
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatosuchus

Science doesn't deal in hard facts, is it fallible: it shifts according to what can be observed and tested. Evolution is, for all that we can observe, the most accurate explanation for how life came about. It could be disproven if say we found a fossil of a modern mammal in the Triassic layer. Thus far that hasn't happened, so evolution stands.

Creationism is infallible, it can be warped to suit any situation. With creationism, you're starting with a conclusion: that God created life, and twisting your evidence around it. Creationism is therefore NOT science, and shouldn't be treated as such.

I have found that the most prolific writers on the ACW era: Foote, Catton, and McPherson, are pretty well-balanced. Far, far worse is the Neo-Confederate movement, which is trying to rewrite history, ignoring or minimizing Slavery completely. They are making absurd claims that tens of thousands of Black men fought side my side with the Confederates (the so-called "Black Confederates") and other patent nonsense. They claim that Fort Pillow and other massacres of USCT troops never happened, in spite of prolific evidence. Neo-Confederates have virtually taken over the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV), pushing their false revisionist agenda.
When you attempt to debate Neo-Confederates on forums or in person, they virtually always sink to personal insults and intimidation, since they can't substantiate their claims. Many Neo-Confederates are Civil War reenactors, cloaking their modern political agenda under the cover of "history".