So I'm probing around my work place, as janators tend to do, being a janator as I am, and I stumble upon a small pamflet type magazine.

"Is it scientifically sound to believe in God?" the title reads in French. The article is about scientists who believe in God and why they think such an entity must exist without doubt.

The precise settings of the univers

It explains that the mathematical probability that the four "fundimental physical forces", being electromagnetism (such as the "origins" of lightning), gravity, "weak interraction" (such as the fuel that the sun constantly burns) and "strong interraction" (such as the forces that ensure that atoms function as they do), are so precisly "adjusted" so that even the slightest change would render earth completly sterile.
In sum what it means is that if there were the slightest change to our envirnment, the chances that we would be here today are slim.

The enigma of complexity

As everyone who has taken mathematical probability courses knows, the more an event is complex, the less likely it is to occure.
The author takes the example of DNA, the fondamental instruction manual of life itself. For a single strand of DNA to form it's necessary for all of the chemical reactions to happen in a precise order.
At the University of Utah, the professor Frank Salisbury calculated the mathematical probability of a single simple molecule of DNA to be spontaneously created in nature, to be near impossible. In fact his research revealed that the formation of such a strand of DNA should be formed was of 1 planet on 100 000 000 000 000 000 000 (10 exposing 20) planets possessing the requirements for life to exist over a period of a billion years.

And the possibility that a single strand of DNA should form naturally in such conditions? 10 exposing 415.

On from there I was unable to deduct anything truly scientific from this short magazine and it based pretty much all of it's conclusions on the paranormal and explaining what they're religious views are towards atheists are. However, it seems to me that they are deducting that because there is life, there is a God. From a scientific and completly logical point of view this sounds illogical to me.

What's my personal belief? Well, I don't know where I stand in terms of religion, but I have come to believe that the univers was created by some kind of entity (The One or God) and that we may be simply here out of random "luck". The fractions and numbers are there. The stars we can see in a clear sky at night are countless in the infinit void of space and time itself is so old, if you could attach such an adjective to time, that the mathematical probability of it all seems logical and possible to me. But then again, I was never really good at math.

I'll more than likely say more later but I want to know what you think the chances that we, or anything we have ever come to know, was ever truly created by such an entity as God.

~Spidey who hopes no one brings up Adam and Eve as "the beginning". ???

lol, that artical sounds like a complete pile of bullshit (no offence to the god cults) the one problem i have with their being any such all knowing force, is the fact that we humans conduct such horrid acts of crulty that it is un amaginable that any all knowing all love being would allow thi to happen...


Shadow

i am compltly stupid " la la la la la la" runs into a vomits then start licking it up

umm i have nothing that i can say to defend my actions

This board doesn't discriminate against religion. If you demonstrate hatred toward Christians or any other group, then you're going to have a very short life here.


Stay on topic.

Also, if this thread even starts to APPROACH creationism and young-earth, then it's getting closed.





~blood rose~

Blood Rose,

I wasnt discriminating againts any religion i was simply stating my distaste for their ilogical fannatism of their lord and how easily they are manipulated in no way did i demonstrate hatrid towards christians. if i gave the wrong impression i am sorry i just hate it when the feed you all this bs propaganda that if it cant be explaind then it is to god.you know if they said what couldnt be expliand was all thing that god has done then i would be ok with it but not oh its god ther fore god did it. its bad the devil had his hand in it. i mean come on and this bs prolife that they try to shove down your throat stating that it is murder to have an abortion when it states in genisis that you arent alive until you breath. so there my god i had to get that out i hate being acused of something i didnt do well i sort of did and i do apologise for it but at least i rationalised it...

i believe God and Jesus exist and i have a faith in them but im not some streetteamer of it so to speak . i dont agree with the Christian religion but
i believe in God and His Son

Okay, how about we change "hatred" with "disrespect" because that image that you posted is definitely disrespectful of Christians.



Lilith

lilith,
i unfortunatly have to agree with you one the fact that it is rather disrespectful but if you break it down it has more meaning then what meets the eye. i encourage you to look deeper and tell me what you belive i ment by it over all. i think the bible is a great book and has some great teaching i am just sick of the manipulation of the words the thease "profesionals" do.


Shadow

Slim doesn't mean non-existant.

And yes, tiny changes can have huge consequences. There was a program on Discovery a while ago about the moon and it's effect on the earth. It stated that without the moon as the stabilising force, there wouldn't be life on earth as we know it, because it's gravitational force keeps the earth steady on its axis.

They also mentioned what happens when the earth shifts a mere degree on its axis. The last time this happened major climactic change occured and the Sahara desert was created. Just by 1 degree of shift.


True enough, however, we all know that sometimes a very small and seemingly insignificant change or error can have massive consequences and trigger a chain reaction nobody could have forseen. If you've ever watched those kind of "Anatomy of a Disaster" shows on Discovery or TLC, you'll have seen how something tiny caused a huge error. Chernobyl was one such incident, as are many major disasters. Tiny little things that accumulate, set off a chain reaction and end up with large changes at the end of it. Rare, yes, but they occur.


At the Museum of Natural History in NYC, there's an IMAX show about the galaxy, or they often show several shows, when we went there was one narrated by Tom Hanks, and another narrated by Harrison Ford. Watching a show like that, where they show you how vast and infinite our galaxy is, an all the billions of galaxies and universes beyond it. We're a tiny little speck in this unknowingly large and vast expanse. Billions and billions of planets and possibilities out there.

Generally, the major complaint I've heard from religious people who don't believe in the Big Bang theory is that they don't believe you can chalk it all up to chance. They seem to dislike the idea that they might be here by a complete fluke. I guess for some people thinking they're here by design is a more comforting thought, much like there being something after death. I guess as humans we dislike not having the answers to unknowable, or currently unknowable questions.

What do I believe? I believe that it is quite possible that we are here as a fluke accident. That some chain reaction once triggered something. We have enough evidence of it in our daily lives, just look at how most living things work, they're all incredibly complex, as well as there just being many documented cases of complex chain reactions happening to cause disasters and other things. Life is nothing if not ever changing and adapting, who knows what can happen.

Plus over the billions of years in its existence, the earth has suffered its share of cataclysmic events. Did you know for example that the moon is actually a chunk of the earth, that was broken off by an impact with an asteroid or meteor which then happened to remain in orbit? Events like these also shaped where the earth was headed. Who knows what might have happened here if that had never happened, seeing as it is the moon's stability on the earth's axis that has made it so that the earth has relatively stable climactic changes.

Yammering on now



Lilith

I doubt that image was created to have a deeper meaning. It's supposed to be taken at face value.

That image also makes no distinction between people who follow Jesus' teachings or the religious hypocrites and fundamentalists who tar the reputation of their religion.

So if you intend to make a distinction between "good" and "bad" christians, I suggest you find something more subtle than a picture that on its face labels christians as retards, and can be perceived in no other way as disrespectful, and perhaps to some offensive.



Lilith

i have a massive headache right now or i would type a rebutal....

sorry but i dont agree.(in reffrence to) "It's supposed to be taken at face value."

Shadow

Hmm,

I do not believe in the suppossed god or his son. I file the bible under F for Fantasy in my bookcase but I have the fullest respect (nowadays) for people who choose to believe in something higher than themselves. It is troubled times we live in and not all people have the strength so stand all by themselves, and that is something I have learned to respect. Me personally do not understand why people put their faith into something else than themselves, or need to "filter" their thoughts through a deity of any kind. People want to do it? Fine, I am totally for peoples right to do as they please (unless they harm someone with their behavior) and what I think of religion is a complete other story for a thread of its own...

I believe the world was created by "The Big Bang" and that man has developed from apes (Darwins theory?). I do not think there is a higher meaning for us being on this forsaken ball of rock other than to reproduce and behave as we generally do. I live just to have fun, so what if "fun" kills me?

That's my view of things. Take it or leave it.

Shadow_ms_sw -- I was like you before, as several people on this board surely can agree with. I learned that it doesn't give anything and it just makes you look bad, but I know where you're comming from in your theories and once upon a time I would have agreed to the lot of it, but I "polished" it all up a bit to escape all the barking and the misunderstandings. Believe me, it's worth it!

Mein sind die Ort genannt Hölle.
=:)

It does seem hard to believe how life as Earth knows it was created under such incredible circumstances. How suddenly life (in primordial form) exploded some couple billion years after the Earth was created, where before that it was just rock, minerals, chemicals (inc. water). But this is how I see things: Several hundred years ago, most people thought the Earth was flat. We now know that's not true, and we can offer scientific reasoning to how gravity and the solar system formed the Earth and other planets. So, keeping that in mind, as scientifically evolved as we think we are now, I believe that there are still an overwhelming amount of scientifically plausible reasons for things that we won't figure out untill a few hundred years from now, or even never figure out at all! Including, the Big Bang and how it was possible that life, such a rare and complex event, even happened so suddenly.

I hope I made some sense. Also, for the record, I'm an Atheist, but I do have good friends who are religious and I respect their ideals, even though deep down inside of me it defies my way of thinking and logic. Anyhow, I'll leave it at that.

This is a very interesting thread! I would of no doubt written more if I wasn't so tired. X_X; Got back from work just a half hour ago and vision's all blurred.

/me signs off for the night

You posted a picture that has Jesus on a cross as the T in Retards. There is no possible way that you can explain that to mean anything other than something nasty and disrespectful.

There is just no way around that.

Anyway, at this point it's time to drop that particular line of conversation.


Lilith

Actually, there is more than enough historical evidence that proves that Jesus did exist as a man. The son of God part is of course a question of faith.

As for the bible, it has plenty of useful informations and lessons in it, many of which need to be taken in context with the period it was written in, and the kind of people it was written for. I'm sure some of the more incredible things written in it might be explained by phenomenon we can now scientifically understand.

They had a whole series about Jesus on the Discovery channel a while ago, they had done research into the things like the whole parting of the seas thing, and found that those events correlate with the eruption of a small island/volcano in the Mediterranean sea, Santorini. It has been documented that certain types of island volcanic explosions can actually cause stuff like the sea to recede vast amounts, as well as make day turn to night (volcanic ash) and make the sun glow red like blood.

Based also on biblical descriptions they found the lost second city of Ramses. It's buried somewhere in a field.

So there's more truth to events in the bible than you might think.

Personally I find that part quite fascinating.



Lilith