Your point (b) here is my biggest beef with the club scene. That's exactly what I've seen happen. Their top priority is the door count. Period. They are not playing for Goths anymore. They are playing what any old body who happens to walk in the door will find "danceable". They want just enough Goths so their night wil seem "edgy", but that's it. The problem arises when someone brand new, who has never been exposed to the gothic subculture, comes in, and assumes that because it's a "goth" club, well, gee, this must be "goth music" and it it's not played there, then it's not Goth music. Then they turn into your point (a) people.
Whether you like Bauhaus, Joy Division, etc. or not doesn't change the fact that this type of music was critical in the formation of the subculture. A Goth should at least know who they are and their significance. They can't just write out the first 20 years of history because they hate trad-goth. This is an elitism that surely rivals the worst of any 'Old Goth' elitism.
It is a myth that the "Goth music has changed" and that classic Goth sounds are a thing of the past. There are many, many bands today in a direct line of descent from those bands. The sound has evolved and is derivative, certainly not a stale copy. In short, 21st century Goth is alive and well.
It just isn't played in "mainstream" Goth clubs. But just because the "mainstream" Goth clubs don't play it doesn't mean it's not "goth". The 'streamer clubs only ride on the back of the subculture. They follow the trends, and do not set them.
See Ralf and Thomas Thyssen's compilations, the New Dark Age series, etc. See what's being played at RTB, Pagan Loves Songs, Dead and Buried, some of the bands at Treffen, etc. (Lest I be accused of being partisan, I'll freely admit that I have serious issues with Nik, but D&B is one of the defining events in the subculture.)
Before the pitchforks and torches come out, I'll add that I am NOT saying that everyone has to like this kind of music (though there is much to choose from), or that this is the sole criteria for Gothyness. Not at all. But I do think that people serious about the subculture should know what it is and recognize it exists. I'm so tired of hearing people claim that "Goth is dead" and that anyone who likes Goth/Batcave are "old fogies" who are "living in the past" and "your time is over" as I've heard some of centurion's point (a) people say. This is just a smoke screen to hide ignorance or a simple unwillingness to share the space.
And sadly, the 'streamer clubs don't even support new EBM! MissFD in South Florida is one of the most talented EBM/Electro artists I've heard recently, but you won't hear her music in the local "gawth" clubs. Just like you never heard Orlando's "The Unknowne" or Miami's Divine Love Mission. Why? Because drunken strippers and frat boys might not dance to them! (As one of the most well known Sofla DJ's told me.) So instead, we hear yet another remix of Headhunter. This is all too typical, and is the kind of thing that turns me off about many "Goth" promoters.
Bring out the pitchforks! But I just bought a repro 16th cent. Italian Hand and a Half sword for the collection, so it won't be one sided! Or maybe the Claymore, it has a bit longer reach....

Just to clarify, we are aware that the correct response to this joke is to say "Undead undead undead" right? Come on people, know your roots!

That would certainly be my response.

i would chuckle at the fact that he said goth was "dead" because of the relation of the subculture and death....

Nicely said and you can add my Masamune to the hunt!!!

It really is a shame, how many of my friends from the (old school)industrial or metal scenes have been completely turned off the "goth" scene because every time they've walked into an event, all they see/hear is people in blue wigs dancing to techno....

I've got a friend who's both a musician and bar owner, who's been in this scene longer than most, who nowadays really can't be bothered, and would much rather check out the 5$ crust punk or breakcore/drum n' bass gigs down the street than waste 50$ to be bored shitless with shit music.

Most goth events here include a dress code, which has only turned it onto a fashion show, as there's obviously no "music code" for the DJs.

^ I totally agree with lostindreaming!

Also, I don't think its right when clubs have a dress code. Ours doesn't, which means "normal" people can come in too (its amusing, however, when they suddenly light up under a blacklight hehe). I think that its petty really...and also puts needless amounts of pressure on people who may well just wanna relax in jeans and t-shirt for the night.

I humbly beg to differ....

I would prefer a goth club with a dress code because thats the point of going out. If you look up all the goth clubs in dallas and houston, you see that there isnt a dress code, you also see people in t-shirt and jeans mixed in with a only few people who actually dressed out.
I can understand if you cant afford the costume, but does it really take so much effort for 1 night a week to make yourself into something spectacular? I dont like it when people just wear a t-shirt and jeans to a gothclub because it looks like they just sort of wandered in from the street to stare at the freak show. it lacks originality and if i wanted to simply wear a t-shirt and jeans i would have stayed home and listened to my own music and drank my own liquor for half the price.

The upside to a dress code is you know that if you dress up, you wont be out of place. For example, someone new to the community decided to attend a local club for the first time, to make an impression she wore her best velvet skirts and satin corset. She did her hair, nails and make up, she dressed up to make a good impression on the local scene because she was new. When she got there, to her horror, everyone there was in jeans and a tshirt. yea, there where a few bimbos wearing skimpy outfits, but even amongst her own culture she stuck out like a sore thumb and not in a good way. She made her impression allright "Trying too hard". It didnt matter if it was true but thats what people thought.
All i ask is to be in costume, whether you're romanti goth or fetish goth. It helps create a distinctive ambiance when everyone is actually dressed up. Can goth clubs have fetish nights? heck yea! but save the casual clothing for mowing your back yard. Going out should mean you want to look your best. Dressing up is what sets us apart from honkeytonks and dance clubs.

I agree with centurion on the music as well so things dont become a "fashion show". We have something distinct about our clubs, and i believe that it is a good thing we are set apart from the norm not only by our costume but by our music as well. Goth pride baby, lets be a little less like them and alot more like us!
-on a side note- When i say "costume" i referr to the term loosely because i know that while what i wear isnt a costume, i also dont wear it every day because its speacial. so i call my cloths "weeds" or "costume" its just a general term not a statement.

Well, if the clubs are playing non-goth music to appeal to a more general audience, to get more people in the door, so they can make more money, then things would be a lot worse without a dress code. If random people are literally walking in off the street in jeans & tshirts I suspect the music would gravitate even further towards the mainstream numetal genre.

Well, it's weird here, at events where people get all dressed up, there's either no or very little dark music to be heard.
At events where there's ACTUAL DARK MUSIC, I'm usually the only one dressed up.

If I were to make an event both visually/aesthetically, AND musically/artistically/cerebrally satisfactory, I would have to advertise it as strictly a SATANIC event, not a goth event, AND have the biggest organizers/artists backing me up.... which I've done before with moderate success.

In fact, next event I'm doing is at a friend's S&M shop with a Satanic/ritual theme, and I'll be playing my stuff while the owner hangs people from the ceiling on hooks

I so wish I could go! I've never seen a suspension before. They're normally pretty personal for a lot of people, but if they're willing to share it would be great.

You're doing a grave dis-service to honkeytonks, dance clubs and lazy goths here. When Blackavar says "relax in jeans and t-shirt for the night" she's not talking about the torn denims and that faded t-shirt you've had for ten years, she means neat, tidy, relatively new black jeans and appropriate t-shirt (probably band related).

I have. It wasn't particularly interesting. It also wasn't advertised as being part of the show for the night so it heavily contributed to my feeling of betrayal and the subsequent boycot of that promotor (they really have an agenda which I disagree with that they push heavily).

I guess it's different for most people, but to me pain is a highly sensual, spiritual thing. Which is why being able to see it would be interesting.

I can see the point, but I'd guess you'd prefer to be aware ahead of time if you're going to see it or not. My main issue with it was that it was pretty much forced on us.

I've seen a few suspensions, and have been part of them, and when people do it for some dumb "showy" event, like a lot of the tattoo/piercing events I've been to, it really is nothing special.

However, I've been with friends who have also had it done for deeply spiritual reasons, and when you're "chosen" to help people on their journey, it's a whole other experience.

Believe me, it's a ritual/occult event, therefore, these people choose to "share" it, not just "show" it, or I would not be having anything to do with it.

I would argue that the goth of the 80's is very much dead. I hear people complaining about what the DJ's are playing but the fact of the matter is, the music shouldn't provided primarily by the DJ's but by live acts. But live acts typically play at other venues. And how many new trad goth bands are out there? (the fact that it's being called trad goth gives one a strong clue) Not many, certainly not enough to build a real scene out of.



So the point in going to Goth clubs is to look nice, rather than listen to the music?

This is the kind of mentalilty that arises when you have clubs with DJ's. I see complaining about goth clubs being primarily dance clubs, but when you have nightclub with DJ's plying recorded music what else would you expect. People mostly go to nightclubs to dance and socialize, not really because they want seriously listen to the music. That's also where you get attitudes like this focusing on things like how you are dressed rather than a real focus on the music.

The only real problem with the Goth scene is that it is focused on Nightclubs.